Konstantin the Red

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About Konstantin the Red

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    Journeyman Member
  • Birthday 05/11/56

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  • Location
    Port Hueneme, CA, USA
  • Interests
    SCA, armouring, firearms, cutlery, f&sf.
  • Occupation
    Cutco Salesman
  1. Here is a Euro 6-1 thread over on Armour Archive, primarily in 6-1's use in mail collars, or pisanes and standards: http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176285&p=2827564#p2827564 And with pictures.
  2. I reckon pictures are needed. E6-1, for reasons of geometry (link lie as well as added material) is practically twice as heavy as E4-1. This can really drag a fella down after a mere two hours in the shirt.
  3. Stainless will, diameter for diameter, be stiff stuff. Second Knuut on soldering silver pieces, for silver wire is soft like lead. It needs all the help you can give it. https://www.gemsociety.org/article/solder/
  4. Not only no maximum, but examples of giant E4-1 are still extant, and have appeared in history. One of the historical examples was torpedo nettings carried about on battleships and cruisers around the turn of the twentieth century for a time. The more modern example of the type is a kind of anti-rockfall mesh sometimes used to retain loose rocks upon steep roadcuts overlooking roads. They don't go falling off and hitting cars -- talk about your roadside surprise! And so, how big? Around 15 centimeters ID. The links are welded closed.
  5. Scales fasten on one end, unless modified with more little holes. Flexible fastening there at one end (nylon sewing awl cord or art-sinew) wouldn't suit, say, design of belts, such as latigo is so often used for. Are you considering chrometanned as your tough sturdy leather also? If you're bringing up latigo it doesn't sound like tooling the leather is under consideration.
  6. Hiya, knuut! Long time no see! SuperTrooper, when you've zipped angled seams/edges together, what you have is a long series of conventional expansions, in a slanting line. And basically they are doing, in making that seam, that join, what expansions do anyway. They make the mail piece to get wider, to flare out.
  7. Paladin may have meant fourteen gauge rather than 16 with the 5/16"ID. For a LARP with soft weapons, I'd counsel against wire that thick, and push 16 gauge instead, as Paladin said. Reasonable weight, sufficient durability even against bare hardstick SCA rattan -- and you can make a fine fabric using 1/4" ID, for a link aspect ratio of 4 and a trifle. Which gives flexible mail. AR4 is a very good ratio to try in butted mail you intend to get hit in. (Real good in riveted mail too.) What Paladin said about shirt weight is spot on. Avoid E6-1 except for small, exposed, special areas, and don't get, um, optimistic about your all-day weight carrying capacity. (Seriously, nobody's ever managed it AFAWK.) Do you ever recollect medieval art depicting a man in a knee length hauberk *and* a combat pack on his back? That's roughly what you're proposing. There's a reason they didn't do that, and it wasn't because wealthy warriors had people for carrying stuff. That warning given, there's still place for putting E6-1 about the neckhole for fun, or made as a somewhat standing collar to put on your shirt as an advanced mailshirt feature, like about, say, 1425 historical date, when mail was a footsoldier's kind of armor -- as was a certain amount of plate, only roughly half of what a mounted armored man at arms would use, having a horse to transport him on the field. A diamond of E6-1 over the point of each shoulder (these being rather exposed) is another possibility. A patch of 6-1 in a diamond or a pointy shape zips easily into a surrounding fabric of 4-1 because everything meets on the sides that are easy to weave into and there's no run of funny links at the top and the bottom edges of the patch of 6-1 -- no edges period. This sort of thing is doable without exhausting you at the end of a day of combat; instead you'll just be suitably tired! These, and a collar of 6-1 armoring your neck and throat are about the extent of the really livable possibilities. A hauberk, varied in sleeve length with century, and descending to the knees in a split skirt with gussets inserted to keep the riders' slit as a slit, is specific to a certain kind of warrior and the latter 11th through earlier 14th centuries. The shorter, more generically "shirt-ish" looking haburgeon, can look plausible from the 14th century forward for a couple more, and perhaps Late Viking period too -- nobody knows because nobody left records nor a whole shirt from that time. Nearly all the historic mail we have qua mail is no older than the 14th century, suggesting that it has a normal shelf life between corrosion and cleaning/oiling/keeping dry of circa 600 years. Galvy smell is not to my nose bad -- about like sniffing a chainlink fence on a wet day close up -- but some people's sweat really reacts with the stuff. So wear something under mail, like maybe two sweatshirts. Launder 'em. If your heart's desire is for mail that strong and stronger, amass the few more tools (and you'll have to make one of them, more or less) you'll need for making riveted mail, and expect to settle in for four times the man hours at weaving the stuff, what with the riveting. A legit, though spendier, method of making riveted mail is to have half your links as punched-out spacer rings, thinner than any washer. Modern washers are too hefty for this kind of use. "Butted Mail, A Mailmakers' Guide" is no longer to be found on its original site, but it is archived somewhere on M.A.I.L. Download the article for safekeeping. It's got nearly everything you need to know for making good mailshirts.
  8. I should also like to pose a philosophical sort of question. Curved seams are very well, when you are cutting cloth. Makes practical garments, out of cloth or from leather. Mailling more fundamentally resembles knitting something -- a shirt, a doily, an ornament, a whatsit. Why seam when you can knit and make it seamless? I say, as sweaters, so mailshirts.
  9. Likely it would need those other interested parties, wolfe. Galil86 originated this thread back in 2008. If anyone's done anything exactly like it, or made progress on this idea, I've not heard of it. For me, it also has to overcome the hurdle I mentioned in a post up-thread.
  10. Watching this with interest. Doubling up scaly or mail armor does send the weight of the whole article through the roof. For a doorstop or a boat anchor, yes, that is useful. Giant weights of body-armor, if armor you intend, no, not very. Doesn't do much to change the actual weapon resistance, either. Probably why theta-mail didn't exactly take off in history back when they wanted mail to keep their insides on the inside.
  11. That's essentially it. A little experience, and a guess about how many pounds of steel/ounces of silver wire would be called for. Tonnage varies with wire thickness. While it'd be an impressive enough programming achievement, I think the time and effort of it would be misapplied: the time taken is time NOT making mail, keeping a bit of a log of your hours spent, and calculating a price for the piece on the back of an envelope. Little more brain-strain than that seems needed, particularly for ancient tech such as mail. Even more ancient than this thread... I wonder whether Galil ever found a practical way to do his scheme? I guess we'd've heard of it by now if he had.
  12. I believe as the original poster, you can delete the three extra copies and threads you made of this post.
  13. You probably see by now that going either way works just fine. Your upper chain is the easiest one to add a lot of links onto; see how the edge nearest you has its links angling up, pointing at your chest? Convenient (I just came within an ace of typing 'convfefe' with fumbly fingers) to slide more links up to it and weave them in along there. You probably rotated your lower chain 90 degrees and stuck it on the upper with a single link to make an L shaped piece you filled in to make the rest of the square in your other pic.
  14. ^Neither, Michael. As you're probably thinking. But strong? -- oh yes, you betcha. Yet, the strong is strong against the incursions of edge and point -- within reason; you want guaranteed kill on a man in hi-performance mail, you use a pickaxe. You want almost-guaranteed, whack him with the axe edge of a halberd before you position yourself to run him through with a low bayonet-thrust of its point. What springy wire gives you is higher strength at lighter weight if you'd like it, and most do. They knew about this, at least in the Renaissance, where it seems they recognized two qualities of chainmail: the regular stuff of plain unhardened wire and the hard, high-tensile mail of higher carbon wire -- I figure around 0.40-0.50% C in the batch, and heat treatable -- which cost appreciably more. On Divers Arts describes case hardening to bring the cheap stuff to the performance of the expensive mail, by cementation w/heat treat. Highly effective, through a wire cross section of 1mm, with an afternoon's baking at red heat. Worth while, I suppose, if you already have a pretty good stash of the cheaper mail in hand -- how would you brightly say, "Hey! Let's do a batch upgrade!" in Renaissance Italian? Otherwise your hardworking Ringharnischer (a German immigrant no doubt) has to lay in a supply of music wire to work up into mail.
  15. Rob, you can simultaneously make all those fivelets into definers of the edge length of your mailpatches, and do it with an extreme simplicity that would impress Donald Trump. Just make 'em as a chain from the very start: 2 links 1 link and 2 links (there's your group of five), now proceed on. After the last 2 links comes 1 link, then 2, then 1, then 2... repeat as necessary. A whole connected row of 5-link elements, all ready to go. All welded up, too. As you connect fives all round, you can also connect chains of alternating single and double links. In due course, you have a mailpatch. I find it good to minimize the number of processing steps building mail; I can keep track of things easier. I think the process also works well in riveted fastening, particularly if there are multiple maillers putting in the man hours on a single mail article. There are several processing steps that one worker may concentrate on and become very swift and proficient, while another works the next step without having to work around the first fellow. The spendy but effective use of half your links being premade, pre-stamped solid links means your weaving time is halved, because half your links you don't have to do anything to but put them in their appointed places in your fivelets.