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Czar

Post a pic and what you charge for the piece.. ?

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$35 for the earrings and $150 for the bracelet

il_430xN.12176077.jpg

I was given a chance to see the Earrings by happenstance while walking around a local artist consignment shop. (and met the artist) While the photography is fantastic here, it doesn't do these guys the justice they deserve. They are truly breathtaking!

(PS: I need another business card of yours... I ended up giving it away to someone in my store >.< )

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I was given a chance to see the Earrings by happenstance while walking around a local artist consignment shop. (and met the artist) While the photography is fantastic here, it doesn't do these guys the justice they deserve. They are truly breathtaking!

(PS: I need another business card of yours... I ended up giving it away to someone in my store >.< )

They are very silky :D and not too heavy; I agree the photo is great but they are stunning IRL! He has a bracelet that I go in and routinely *drool* over--yup WS, that is my drool on that one! I bug my dh about once a month...he keeps saying "no". Alas, maybe one day ;)

~Angie

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excellent thread, and beautiful work everyone :)

Now I have a question... may or may not fit in this thread...if not please redirect me!!

Here goes:

Say you have a (for simplicities sake) an 8" Full Persian bracelet made with 20 gauge 5/32 ID rings no clasp (for simplicities sake) There are 28 rings per inch, so 224 total rings.

Now... you've got one in gold, sterling, stainless, enameled copper, bright aluminum, etc.

How do you go about pricing them? I'm having a HORRID time trying to get my pricing formula down so that it's fair from metal to metal. I get it all worked out and it looks great for sterling... but then I apply it to BA and it looks WAY too high. I try to do based on material and length as opposed to time it took because I am HORRIBLE at keeping track of my time.

For example... this is what I come up with using my in-major-need-of-revision formula and TRL material prices.

Bright Aluminum $26.44 (total material cost is $.81)

Brass $27.52 (total material cost is $1.17)

Stainless Steel $30.46 ($2.15)

Sterling Silver $61.26 ($12.42)

Fine Silver $64.15 ($13.38)

To me, the silver seems to be in the ballpark...maybe a tad high for a bracelet(?)... and the aluminum seems way high ending up nearly the same as stainless, which should be more because of the durabilty....

This is a HUGE issue for me and the major reason I don't actively try to sell anything... I can't get my prices figured out :(

Are you all using time based formulas? And if so, how do you deal with aluminum vs sterling? I'm just as slow with aluminum as I am with sterling... so how would that work? I'm so confused :(

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I never know what to price my stuff at so here's a couple things I've done.

ChainMailleDragonCollar.jpg

Sterling silver E 4-1 collar with pewter dragon $200

P4300095.jpg

Sterling Silver Double spiral and Byzantine with adventurine beads $130

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Just to keep this thread going.

poptabbraceletscales.jpg

The hand model is smaller than normal so these appear to be monster tabs, which they are not :)

Stats (aside from tabs | 11 per 8" bracelet)

SXAB1814 held together by SXAB20332

The scales (small nickel clad) are attached to the inner tab ring by SXAB18316

Time: ~15 min

Price: $8

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(Loss of toes indicates amalgamation of valuable life lessons and experience, whereas extra toes indicate you are mutant and probably have other issues that are harming your success)

ok... just for that line alone you should adjust all of your future AF calcs by +1!

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Bingo. Zing. Attaboy. *highfives*. Yay.

Also, figuring out your costs is different than figuring out your price. You want to minimize your costs, while charging as high a price as you can.

Figuring out your costs helps you figure out whether you should be making the item to begin with or not.

The only formula that matters for costs, is:

Hourlywages + Expenses = Minimum Price

No funny multipliers. Then, what you charge, is at least that any maybe more. Usually, you want your price to be proportional to your costs, and stay consistent. If you're not staying consistent, some items are making you more for your time, and others less. So you should stop making the ones that earn you less.

And to repost my comments from another recent pricing thread:

--------------

The problem with using any kind of multiplier to the materials cost.. is that it only works for a very small subset of items. You can easily end up with a final price that bears very very little resemblance to your costs.

For example, two products:

1 - A tiny silver necklace with 1000 rings (28G?), using 1/3 oz of silver.

2 - A silver earing, with 20 rings (18G?), using 1/3 oz of silver.

Both use 1/3 oz of silver. If you do the straight "3x material costs", you get an identical price. (Or close enough, thinner wire is *slightly* more expensive per weight, but, ignore that).

Do those items have equal cost, to you, as an artist?

I'm willing to bet that you'd want to charge 50x more for the necklace than the earing, because it took you 50x as long.

...

I think these materials-multiplier formulas came into being using *coincidentally functional* observations.

For example:

1 - A bracelet, 150 rings, 1/2 oz of silver. You think a good price is $30.

2 - A necklace, 300 rings, 1 oz of silver. You think a good price is $60.

Thus you conclude: "Aha, silver costs me $20/oz, so I will simply use the formula 'Materials x 3 = Price'! This is easy!" ... but the reason it works is because the *ringcount* is double, not because the amount of silver is double, (though that also counts, it's not the most important part). It's just a coincidence.

If you commonly work with a narrow gauge/AR range, you might be misled into thinking that that works, because generally, it will. If you always use the same ring sizes, scaling by weight *is* scaling by ring-count, and, by ring count also an hourly wage (rings take the same amount of time to weave whether big or small).

You'll find that people that use these formulas, will use them, and then say that for some items they "Increase/decrease it a little because it seemed to high/low." Of course it does. But if you're just picking a price that "makes sense" anyway, what good is the formula? Why not just pick a price that makes sense on your own.. OR.. better yet, figure out what criteria are actually involved in what "makes sense" and try to work that into a formula.

Actual criteria, seems obviously to me, is how much time you spend working on it. That's what you actually care about. Then tack on your costs.

It's funny, actually. You'll run into 3 types of (what I think are silly) pricing formulas:

1 - Armorers. They usually say labor is free, you pay a fixed multiplier of the materials.

2 - Very fine jewelry-makers, like Loren who works with infinitesimal wires. They say materials are free, you only pay for labor.

3 - Everyone else, larger-ring jewelry-makers. Like Legba or LL above [in other thread], who have a combination of both material multipliers and wage rates.

None of the above 3 groups' formulas work when you move outside their wire range (though the third group has more wiggle-room).

I think it's silly because one formula *always* works:

Hourlywage + Expenses = Price

Always. Up or down, matters not. As you go to the extremes, one or the other of those will start to appear insignificant and you can get by with an approximation and then some light fudging for the "missing piece", but, I don't see why you'd do it.

-----------

Also, I came up with an excellent alternative pricing strategy if you don't like any of the above suggestions.

It is silly, like the formulas above, but, brace yourself, it will knock your socks off with it's versatility and power. Here goes:

---

Ring Count / Number of Toes On Your Feet = Price

---

It works with a, well, rather amazingly large subset of rings and materials. As good as any of the other silly ones above.

Better yet, if it's off, it'll probably be off by the same fraction on any one given person's prices (due to Awesomeness Multiplier, which is a ratio you multiply your ring count by, [obviously based on how awesome you are, which you don't know until you try], but, I wanted to keep it simple so I left that out). Those so inclined, post your years of experience and awesomeness multipliers. I think it'll be rather resilient.

I like this formula for all but one thing, that maybe I'm just missing: Material cost.

If I make a necklace out of sterling silver in 18 g 1/4" rings with 1000 rings the material cost is approximately $220 from TRL sterling. (21.60 for 97 rings)

Whereas, same specs but lets say Bright aluminum is going to cost me less than five dollars. Therefore both have 1000 rings, and I have 10 toes so my price should be $100 each right? why in god's name would I make anything out of siler I'm losing $120 each item! However knowing silver will sell for more you could hypothetically say [price of rings + (wage x hours)] x awesomness factor = price

thus saying item number one: [220 + (10 x 3hours)] x 1 = 250 for an awesomeness factor of one and

item number two: [5 + (10 x 3hours) x 1 = 35 for an awesomeness factor of one. both yeild the same profit for them same number of rings, whereas your previous formula does not, the awesomness factor is the same as yours and i take no credit for that part of the formula.

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:eek: Fail. Worst use of selective quoting ever. One single line of quotation would have sufficed. If anyone wanted to re-read that entire post, they could just have scrolled up.

...

And, come on. Seriously? You quoted that entire post to honestly criticize a formula that suggests basing the price of your jewelry on the quantity of toes you possess? Combo fail :D. It's just a silly nobrainer formula that I wrote up, that surprised me by actually having a little bit of value, but mostly for amusement's sake. I thought, obviously, for amusement's sake. It's power is in being funny and easy to remember, and it's useful for a rough ballpark. I mean, I even go on to make fun of the Count Toes pricing scheme and point out how it oversimplifies just about everything.

You quoted the entire post, did you read the part where I actually listed the serious and accurate formula?

"Hourlywage + Expenses = Price"

That one works always in every situation, and is as simple or complex as you want to make it.

*can't believe someone took CountToes seriously enough to wonder why it wasn't working*

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I like this formula for all but one thing, that maybe I'm just missing: Material cost.

Material cost falls under expenses:

Hourly wage + Expenses = Price

=

The wages you get hourly + The cost of things you pay for = What something sells for.

Just thought I would clear that up. :)

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:eek:You quoted the entire post, did you read the part where I actually listed the serious and accurate formula?

"Hourlywage + Expenses = Price"

That one works always in every situation, and is as simple or complex as you want to make it.

*can't believe someone took CountToes seriously enough to wonder why it wasn't working*

I think your awsomeness factor makes a good point that I hadn't been thinking about. supply and demand. If I say my time is worth $12 an hour, and I use $10 of sterling to make some wicked earings that take me 30 min to make. do I really sell them for $16? no. I sell them for what they are worth. If those same earings are worth $60 to someone, why wouldn't I charge them $60. I guess a better way of puting it is that when you are dealing with art (which chainmaille very well can be) wage+cost should not equal price, your creative efforts should be included in there somewhere and that can only really be judged by what people are willing to pay.

On a somewhat tangent, I don't make armor for anyone but myself, because the people that do make armor have royally screwed the economy in that market by charging material cost only. (for the most part, there are exceptions.) I'm not about to spend 80 hours on a hauberk and only make $300-$600 on it. that's less than minimum wage here.

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I guess a better way of puting it is that when you are dealing with art (which chainmaille very well can be) wage+cost should not equal price, your creative efforts should be included in there somewhere and that can only really be judged by what people are willing to pay.

To re-re-re-re-rehash this, picking your own wage is only useful for telling you what the minimum you should charge is. That is, if you cannot sell for that amount, do not bother making it.

But as to what you could sell it for, that can only be determined experimentally.

A more accurate description, is to figure out the highest price you can charge for an item, and then backstrapolate the wage you ended up earning on it. Then use that to base all future prices, because if you cannot earn that wage again on a different item, you should not make that item.

This thread tells me that no mailler should bother making anything but earings, because they have the largest markup by far. Why would you choose to make $10/hour when you can make $30/hour? Once you've figured out your maximum wage by mailling, why bother wasting time on the items that earn you less per hour?

On a somewhat tangent, I don't make armor for anyone but myself, because the people that do make armor have royally screwed the economy in that market by charging material cost only. (for the most part, there are exceptions.) I'm not about to spend 80 hours on a hauberk and only make $300-$600 on it. that's less than minimum wage here.

Yep. You got it. Armorville is the worst place in mailletown to live. The demand for armour is low, and the supply is high.

Now, back to people posting their observations please, or Czar will get angry again about a hijack.

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JPL_set_by_Eld_Fagel.jpg

This is my personal JPL set. I sell the necklace for $25, the bracelet for 7$ and I don't think I would make a ring at this size ring, it would just be a PITA. Stats are: 16ga. 3/16 in. id. and it's in galvy. Unfortunately I lost the bracelet due to a weak clasp and I have a feeling that the school's lawnmower may find it:(:D.

and to save me a post #2:

Spiral_and_HP3_1_by_Eld_Fagel.jpgSpiral necklace in 16ga. 1/4 in. id. galvy (same stats for the HP3-1) The necklace goes for $12 and most of my bracelets are $5-7. The spiral necklace is very popular at my school and have many requests from people but I'm too busy to make a lot of them.:D. On a possibly unnecessary side note: I believe this is the longest post I've ever written.

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This is my personal JPL set. I sell the necklace for $25, the bracelet for 7$ and I don't think I would make a ring at this size ring, it would just be a PITA. Stats are: 16ga. 3/16 in. id. and it's in galvy. Unfortunately I lost the bracelet due to a weak clasp and I have a feeling that the school's lawnmower may find it:(:D.

and to save me a post #2:

Spiral necklace in 16ga. 1/4 in. id. galvy (same stats for the HP3-1) The necklace goes for $12 and most of my bracelets are $5-7. The spiral necklace is very popular at my school and have many requests from people but I'm too busy to make a lot of them.:D. On a possibly unnecessary side note: I believe this is the longest post I've ever written.

You're under-charging. I wouldn't sell anything for less than $15 and that's the price for my very good friends.

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You're under-charging. I wouldn't sell anything for less than $15 and that's the price for my very good friends.

I would agree, but it's galvanized steel jewelry. Galvy is ugly enough to be avoided as an armor material, let alone jewelry. I think he's lucky to get that much. Switch it up to stainless and it could probably be sold to the same crowd for 3x the price.

And.. he might not be undercharging. If he can't sell it for more than what he has been, he can't. Though, I think some experimenting with steeper prices is in order.

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I would switch to stainless but galvy is the only thing around here and i don't want to/can't pay the price that it would to order it from one of the hardware stores. Yes, most people agree I'm undercharging, but like Cynake said it's galvy and i want it to sell because I make it for fun and most of the people I sell to are in high school and have to have pay for other stuff. Eventually I will raise my prices. Also I will eventually place an order to TRL to get some AA and some other better metals but I'm waiting to get enough money to place a big order:D

Edited by eld fagel
typo:)

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