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Legba3

ATTENTION all weave inventors

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I *believe* you'd have to prove you didn't see it on their website. [...] Loopy, it wouldn't be hard to prove *you* copied it (and I know you didn't, this is just an example for discussion).. As I said above, it's a reasonable assumption because the links to the homepage are on both the profiles and you are all members of the forum. [...] The simplest solution to this is that "You" followed a link in the forum, saw it on their website, and copied it. Case closed.

I think the legal system goes for a more complicated reasoning than "the simplest solution is right." Civil rulings don't have quite as high a burden of proof as criminal courts, but, I hardly think they follow Occum's Razor. Maybe a Greater Miracle test skewed heavily towards innocence.

What they will look at is the likelihood of you have been able to come up with it without copying. Remember, a copyright protects you from copying, but two people can simultaneously hold a copyright to an identical item, independently.

This is to liken, say, someone accusing you of stealing a sentence out of their book and using it in your book. 1) The impact of such is low, and 2) The likelihood of it needing to have been copied is low.

A paragraph.. now much less likely, and much higher impact. A chapter, entirely unbelievable that it could have been arrived at by independent means, and has significant impact.

With chainmaille.. I'd really be interested to see if there's *any* case law about weaves. I doubt it. I think it'd be really hard, considering the burden of proof, to convince a judge that weave must have been copied (if weaves even count, which I do not think they do). Look at all the situations of multiple independently created weaves. Look at where new weaves come from. They're mutated from past weaves making very very slight changes. Often by accident.

Now stop and consider that. A copyright protects you from derivative works. If you're making someone else's weave and invent a new one, do you own that new weave? Or does the weave it's based on require you to forfeit that and make your new weave unlawful? [Edited to add - Oops, I see Lesimony made this point a page back.]

....

Another important item to know here, is that MAIL makes *ZERO* claim on the submitter of a weave being the inventor. ZERO. NONE. All the submitter has done is post a picture of a new way of arranging rings.

So now, how do you know who invented a weave? Did the submitter, or, as in many cases, were the just the first ones to post it? "I saw this or something like it in a beading magazine 10 years ago" is common to hear from submitters.

What about writing a tutorial to a weave you don't own the rights to? ILLEGAL. HOW DARE YOU. Now you're enabling all these other copyright infringers, and worse, maybe making them feel it was okay. Just because you read something in a tutorial, does not mean you can use it or sell a product based on it either. The whole lot of us are counterfeiters. I am dead serious. If you believe weaves are copyright, that is what this community becomes.

....

As this pertains to BW's Crystal River bracelet, the above is moot. They knowingly copied it. Again, I think because they assumed it was a weave. They wouldn't steal a finished design and then be dumb enough to use the name. They're using the name because they want to use a common nomenclature for weaves, which is a good thing.

...

This conversation has me rather disgusted with people's pettiness and attitudes. Here are some reasons why people help the community:

1) For expected return. Selfishly, we see that there is a calculated benefit to ourselves by giving to the community, and we expect a return from people building on that in the future.

2) A sense of guilt motives us. That we could not have done the things we've done without people in the past doing what they did and sharing it. We owe it to continue to share.

3) Out of a desire for communal improvement. Goodness of your heart and all that. We are genuinely pleased that the art has advanced and that our potential is greater, and we'd like to help any way we can.

4) For power trip, profit, or exclusion/competition. That if we can show we invented something, everyone has to ask permission from us or pay us to use it, and we won't have to ask permission from someone else.

Before now, I always presumed #3 was by far and large dominating our motives, with some #1 and #2 tossed in to prod us. Tutorials are written for people to use so they could push the envelope a little further. Weaves are invented and publicized so other people can enjoy them and who knows, maybe show us amazing new things to do with them.

Now it's seeming that, okay, there's some of that, but beneath it all there's a core of #4. It may not be enforced all the time, but damnit do people think they're entitled to whip it out when it suits them.

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Wormfart: if you would e-mail us telling us your intentions, we would obviously discuss it with you.

Gaanon, we don't post our stuff anymore with stats and specs because we are tired of people copying design without even have the decency to mention they were inspired by ours or someone elses piece.

On to the topic of Ess/BW crystal river. I agree with you, and Cynake that the design was genuinely copied, but here is some food for thought.

Your design consists of a few major components.

1. Segments of Byzantine: were you the first one to use segments of Byzantine in a weave, rather than just make a whole weave out of Byzantine?

2. Saturned beads: were you the first one to use Saturned beads in a weave?

3. Byzantine sheet: did you invent Byzantine sheet?

Now before this goes further, I want to say it is a beautiful design, and the execution is flawless, however if the execution of a design is copyrightable, then each one of those pieces of the design is copyrightable and you are infringing their rights. He is also not selling the finished item for a profit, therefore not directly competing with you for business. You also posted a picture of the design on the Internet. 10 seconds of looking at it told me how it was made, so saying his tutorials are stealing business doesn't really fly. The use of the name “Crystal River” seems to fit with Cynake's explanation of events, thinking it was a weave rather than a finish product. Finally, someone mentioned that both the MAIL and TRL forums have a strong insiders only viewpoint. This is dead on. Take Phong's site for example (sorry to drag you into this, you just have a very nice site that works well for this argument) if I were to take a tutorial from his site and make something, and then post it on here. All we would hear is how nice it looked, but if I took that same piece, and set up a website trying to sell it. All we would here is "copyright infringement". While I don't believe we can come up with a single standard, it would be a step in the right direction.

Now if you figured it out... can you tell me how many ring size(s) there is in that design and which one are they? what size(s) of beads did we used? If you figure all of it I will gladly give you one for your own. You have 24hours to win your prize starting now.

You said it 3 different components, used in a very specific way which created a unique design, not just a weave. It is the combination of it all that made the crystal river...

Anyway, Arrangements have been made with Long canyon to mention our name as an inspiration and I think it is a fair arrangement since we will be promoting her tutorials as a token of our gratitude for her linking us on her site.

Are we happy with the deal? yes! are we flattered we have been copied/been an inspiration? yes!

Are we done with this discussion? Yes

Thank you

BW

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Are we happy with the deal? yes! are we flattered we have been copied/been an inspiration? yes! Are we done with this discussion? Yes Thank you

That's cool, you get what you want and you're gone. It's not like it's case closed though. This issue still has far-reaching implications.

To repost what I threw up on MAIL recently:

I have read this whole thing on copyrighting and it seems to me that the authors are more upset about not getting credit than getting money.

To me, that's not so much the scary part.

I think it's pretty low class to chase people around and shout "You didn't say thank you! You didn't say thank you!", even lower to insist that you're entitled to a thank you and start an argument.

.. so, almost everyone of that opinion, I don't think is that petty so for their motivations you have to dig a bit deeper. I think the process goes like this:

--

1 - You invented a weave and own it. No one else can use it unless you say so, under whatever arrangements you make.

2 - Someone else uses it or makes money off it.

3 - You choose for your waiving of rights to consist only of them crediting you, not choosing to disallow them from using it entirely, or requiring them to pay you a royalty to use it.

--

Now *that* in itself, is not so bad. Because it appears just like the case above, all you have to do is maybe ask, or, at least say thank you.

The scary part is that in this situation, people are only *choosing* to waive their rights in exchange for a thank you, as opposed to just being disgruntled over bad manners. ... Meaning they could have just as easily chosen *not to* set the limit there. They could have chosen to not let you use it at all or demanded a royalty.

If we acknowledge that you should have to ask, or say thank you, on any grounds other than that that would be polite of you, we open the floodgates to the scary part.

That scary part, is basically the death of MAIL. Feck it. What's the point if that's what the community becomes, and we're just a half-assed copyright database where everyone's grabbing at what's theirs and what they're entitled to and restricting what anyone and everyone can do?

On a personal note, if that's where we stand, I'm out. That's not why I'm here [on MAIL's Board of Directors, not random member of TRL].

The disastrous potential of the latter situation far far far outweighs the annoyance and possible rudeness of the former, which is part of why I'm trenching in so deep on the issue and trying to address every claim. It's been chill here [MAIL], the thread on TRL is getting a lot hairier though, with a lot of people thinking they *do* have legal grounds on weaves.

Legally we won't know the answer until someone tries to take it to court. I don't think there's any precedent for weaves vs. finished works. This is an issue that is maybe a decade old, a bit older than MAIL, as maille was basically a dead art before then except in beading magazines.

But, while I care quite heavily about the potential legal fallout, (which I actually think we're quite safe on, I haven't read anything approaching a convincing informed argument to the contrary).. I'm far more concerned about the community fallout. If this is how people are thinking and expecting, feck it. I don't want to be part of it.

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Cross-posted from M.A.I.L.:

------------------------------

Having been through this about six times now myself, I can tell you what the IP lawyer I hired told me.

* Pictures: "You own 'em period. Sue."

* Documents/tutorials: "You own 'em period. Sue."

* Ideas/Designs: "If you haven't shown them to anyone, or told anyone about them, you own them. Once you have, they're public property."

* He also mentioned that all these things are determined by civil courts, and that usually means that the party with the most money wins, regardless of the law...

The one thing I never asked about was names. It's conceivable that having published a weave with a name, and having been the first to do so, you might have some IP rights on the name in question. Anyone wanna call a lawyer? I'm through spending cash on this stuff.

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Ess/BW - I am glad that you finally got the situation resolved. However, this whole situation has made me think about your Bone Collector Collection. A while back, I posted (with permission from the creator - Deanna Kittrell) a piece that she designed and had published in one of the bead magazines. I can't remember which one at the moment. I see no credit given to her for the inspiration of your Bone Collector Collection. What is the difference here?

You repeatedly say that you don't want to post any more of your creations for review because you are afraid of someone stealing them. I truly hope that I never reach this point. How do you guys enjoy life when worrying so much about this?

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Legba - I am also glad that you got your credit as well. I am not quite sure how your thread turned to Ess and BW.... If everyone could just get the credit they deserve...the world would be a much happier place! Sometimes you do have to fight for what you believe is right.

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Ess/BW - I am glad that you finally got the situation resolved. However, this whole situation has made me think about your Bone Collector Collection. A while back, I posted (with permission from the creator - Deanna Kittrell) a piece that she designed and had published in one of the bead magazines. I can't remember which one at the moment. I see no credit given to her for the inspiration of your Bone Collector Collection. What is the difference here?

You repeatedly say that you don't want to post any more of your creations for review because you are afraid of someone stealing them. I truly hope that I never reach this point. How do you guys enjoy life when worrying so much about this?

I'm sure Ess and BW will respond to this, but I'd like to weigh in on this one.

The difference is between "inspiration" and "execution". I know exactly which bracelet you are speaking about.. I've got the magazine, and I loved the bracelet.

Ess and BW used the bracelet for inspiration. I've seen a couple of the completed pieces for the Bone Collector collection, and I've seen sketches of the ideas for the other pieces.

Yes.. the beads and rings are in similar configuration, but the actual designs of the pieces are very different. Wtihout giving away too much, that bracelet is very linear. The Bone Collector collection isn't. Comparing the bracelet by Deanna Kittrell and the Bone collector series is like saying Byzantine and Ladder byzantine are the same. The components are there.. but that's about the extent of it.

With all due respect Tamarie, Ess and BW didn't make the exact same bracelet in a different colour, put it on their website and then say that they came up with it.

Ess and BW are well within their rights to protect their original designs by not posting them on the internet. I can't blame them after this nonsense with the Crystal River bracelet. By doing the smart thing, they don't have to worry about their designs being stolen. Anyone who has the same concern would be wise to follow their example.

As for enjoying their life, I think they do just fine. :)

LL

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By doing the smart thing, they don't have to worry about their designs being stolen. Anyone who has the same concern would be wise to follow their example.

I'd like to take the opposite side, and encourage everyone to follow the counter-example. Share your items and your knowledge as much as possible.

Where would BW and Ess be without being able to look at the items and the shared knowledge of anyone else?

Nevermind the pieces they made that were "inspired" by others, if those others had hidden their pieces except to potential buyers, they'd never have seen them to be inspired.

Where would any of us be if people had not shared the weaves they came up with? Pioneers to the art like Sakredchao and many of the others from TCB who founded MAIL? You'd have 7 historic weaves you'd have a hard time finding pictures of and a handful of people with maybe a weave or two of their own they never show anyone.

* No articles. Too bad.

* No tutorials. Figure it out yourself.

* Maybe only 20 or 30 weaves, as no one can build on another's example, they all have to start from scratch. That means you'd have to have figured out every single weave except the historic handful, and how many of us could have invented more then a dozen or two?

* Oh, and no dirt-cheap rings from TRL, and no massive inventory of ring materials/colors/options. No one would know they were possible, and there wouldn't be enough maillers around for them to be stockable.

* And good luck making an inlay without hiring Zlosk and paying a fee... except he probably wouldn't have even designed the IGP because there'd be so few people mailling, there'd be no support for anyone trying to learn and no one to bother writing the app for.

Instead we have dozens (hundreds?) of tutorials, 700+ weaves, loads of articles, and thousands and thousands of beautiful inspiring pictures of all kinds of projects. We have the IGP. We have two thriving communities who, for the most part, are just about bottomless in their willingness to help and teach others. And we've brought a dead art form to a blossuming one with more and more people picking it up every day.

It's a bit hypocritical to take so much from the community and the benefits of collaboration and openness, and then turn and exclude others from anything you come up with, no?

I mean, screw rights. Of course it's within your rights. Act however you'd like. But this turned to a question of ethics pretty quick, and who planted their foot on the ethics question? People saying they should have been given credit.

Yeah it sucks when your design is copied. I'd be pissed too. Is the only solution to pull the plug?

Also... BW isn't pulling her designs. She's just not specifying the exact ring sizes and counts so it's a bit harder to clone. Seems to me to be a happy medium.

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I would knida like to see the same thing Cynake.

Trouble is I am trying to make a living from this and seeing my weave with no credit when (some) others have credit sucks.

Long Canyon and I are happy with the arrangement now. I hope anyone else affected is also happy with any arrangement.

I would like to see this discussion come to a happy ending so please can we stop repeating ourselves.

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Ess/BW - I am glad that you finally got the situation resolved. However, this whole situation has made me think about your Bone Collector Collection. A while back, I posted (with permission from the creator - Deanna Kittrell) a piece that she designed and had published in one of the bead magazines. I can't remember which one at the moment. I see no credit given to her for the inspiration of your Bone Collector Collection. What is the difference here?

You repeatedly say that you don't want to post any more of your creations for review because you are afraid of someone stealing them. I truly hope that I never reach this point. How do you guys enjoy life when worrying so much about this?

Inspiration VS Copying.... I guess we were inspired.. did we copy? hell no! was that person design what inspired us? probably yes.

Did we asked credit for an inspiration? no! did we asked credit for something that was copied? yes!

BW

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Tamarie, I remember well that it was your piece (original design by Deanna Kittrell) that inspired me into the idea of the Bone Collector.

But as I also remember, your execution was a replica of her design posted in a Bead and Button magazine. In that case, I would clearly get the permission of the author to sell it, if that was my intention.

I also remember Deanna Kittrell replying to your thread (http://www.theringlord.org/forum/showthread.php?t=31921)

Hello to all, I just wanted to let everyone know That I designed this bracelet about 2 years ago and have taught it at my local bead store since then. I sumbitted it to Bead and Button in June 2006, with the realization that if the design went into the magazine, other people would make it and sell it. I feel that I gave up the exculsive rights to the design when it went into the the magazine. I do ask that you do not represent this as your original design. I also welcome beaders and chainmailers to change the designs, add to the design and make it their own. Thanks, Deanna Kittrell

That is exactly what I did for the Bone Collector. I got inspired by her work, changed it and made a Collection out of it, of original pieces. I never stated that I invented the design, but I can say that the pieces I did are original. I didn't copy the artist work, didn't use the name she gave her bracelet, didn't even reproduced her bracelet...

On the other hand, that is what happened with the Crystal River... Someone made a replica of the design, with the same name, with the idea to make money without any permission. On the post from Tamarie that I linked, Lawless Lady posts quotes from a magazine about "When, if ever, is it acceptable to sell or teach another person's designs?". After reading that again, It still makes a lot of sense...

I think that sums it all. I'm fine with the arrangements we made with Long Canyon about the issue.

So just like a band would be inspired by another band to write a song with a particular sound, people with enough musical knowledge could find the similiarities between the two. The band probably wouldn't credit the inspirationnal band in the CD of their album. When asked in an interview, they would probably say that they were inspired by that band... and if I was asked in an interview too, I would definitely say the Kittrell's work has inspired the Collection, but I don't think that I need to state in every description that so and so inspired the piece... As long as the design is not a reproduction of the inspiration...

Ess

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Inspiration VS Copying.... I guess we were inspired.. did we copy? hell no! was that person design what inspired us? probably yes.

Did we asked credit for an inspiration? no! did we asked credit for something that was copied? yes!

How do we enjoy life? We have a wonderfull young boy, with who we spend most of our time with. He is healthy as we are and we are a very close family.

Me and Ess even if we have been together for a while and have a kid still consider ourself a couple not just a family and we still have sexual desire that we consume regurlarly for our pleasure and that is part of why we enjoy life.

We have friends with whom we spend time, play table top games, have nice supper etc. spending time with them really bring joy in our life.

We regularly help our community and friends through different act of kindness and are more than willing to sacrifice ourselves for others. Those gestures are part of the reasons why we enjoy life a lot.

We just bought our first house and are eager to move in next month and host Loren's workshop and meet new people at the same time... I am already planing the food... cause one of the reason why we enjoy life is the good food and drink we consume and share with others.

Now life is full of worries, we have ours you have yours...are you really enjoying life???? Am I worried someone is going to "steal" our design... Not really... are you worried you won't be able to come up with nice designs... maybe yes and maybe that is why you are picking on us and wondering if we enjoy life...

BW

I never implied that you COPIED ANYTHING! It seems to be a double standard. Everyone hollers...don't copy....give kudos for inspiration. You can't deny that no credit for inspiration was given. She doesn't frequent this board so it has gone unnoticed. Now, had someone from this board posted that bracelet as their own...you could bet it would have been said, "What about my credit?" It has happened so many times before. I know that either of you would NEVER copy anyones work...it is just not your style or nature. That was not the implication.

Furthermore, I have stated several times that I AGREE that you should have asked Long Canyon for the credit on your Crystal River and am glad that you got what you deserved. Again, it is a beautiful piece!

And finally, the only thing that I feel I owe an apology for is implying that you do not have a happy life. I am sorry if it came across that way. I don't know either of you personally. I do know that you have a beautiful baby from the picture on Ess's profile. That question was meant as a rhetorical question to be strictly limited to the topic of jewelry making...not your personal life. It was late and I can see where it might have come across as a slam to you...for this I do apologize.

And for the record, I come up with my own style and designs just fine!

I agree with Legba...maybe we should all agree to disagree and move on!

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Stealing pictures and/or text is a clear violation of rights, and needs to be pursued vigorously, but seing someone else's piece and saying "I can make that too" is at worst annoying, and at best a compliment.

I am just wondering why copying a text, a picture, a song, music, movies, reproducing a painting etc. is stealing... but copying a jewelry design is not?

BW

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I am just wondering why copying a text, a picture, a song, music, movies, reproducing a painting etc. is stealing... but copying a jewelry design is not?

BW

It is (according to many people and the law EDIT the law here at least) stealing, BW.

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It is (according to many people and the law EDIT the law here at least) stealing, BW.

Legba,

I know it is stealing but I am wondering why people here are saying it is not?

BW

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OK, let's try this on a more obvious and grand scale.

I think it's safe to say we all know what the Mona Lisa is, no?

By the logic being argued here, I'm being led to believe that it would be completely ok to duplicate the painting, claim it as my own, and sell it for a comparable price. That is, taking a HUGE leap of faith that my crayons are that good.

That's not quite so good now is it? First off, Copyrights are for the life of the creator plus 50 years. So it's pretty fair game now, isn't it? But depending on the wording, and that's where the lawers get paid to have fun, by saying it's my painting...does that mean I painted it? That I bought the 'original' painting (like I have that much money to burn)?

Now let's bring it to something more modern. There's an artist...with a gallery...selling his/her art. I go in, I look around, I read the little placard that names the piece, lists the components, write it down in my notes, even take a few pictures. Then I go home and, because I'm just that damn good, recreate the piece and write a series of instructions on how to do it. Now we know some will never get it. They'll never be able to reproduce the piece to that of the original. Others will come quite close. Now, if you have one or two who can do it and start selling the piece, then what does that do to the original artist? I believe it diminishes the work he put into his creation.

Now, without doing a ton of research and just reading what I can on this thread, here's another theory of mine. When Long Canyon started drafting their tutorials the took a calculated risk. Those tutorials based on HARD COPY published, and therefore truly copyrighted, works they took the time and effort to contact the creator. For those where the weave or creation was based on a soft copy publication, i.e. web based, they figured a) few would know or notice, B) fewer would care, and c) even fewer then that would have the resources to put foward a true legal case. After all, one would be led to believe that a magazine publishing company would have quite a bit more resources to protect it's content then does an individual like you or me.

It's been stated before, he who has the most money wins.

Gaanon

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I'd like to say that I am happy to see that those who have spoken with the owner of the site are now part of an agreeable arrangement. I had hoped that these arrangements would have stifled the anger in this thread, but I see that several people still wish to discuss their feelings. I hope the rest of this discussion comes to an equally happy conclusion, just as the original problem posed in this thread has been (mainly?) resolved.

I was attempting to think of something inspiring to say in order to add to this conversation, but it seems that the conversation is starting to circle. It seems that there is an unspoken undertone that is still hanging on to each post. That is one of fear: fear that should this one instance be allowed, then it will open up the floodgates for countless other people to copy and sell designs that others are attempting to make a living on. While this may just be an idle thought given the difficulty of interpreting subtle meanings in text, I just want to weigh in and say that I don't think that it is worth losing sleep over.

I am mainly perturbed that I see several members that I respect greatly, for their creativity, intelligence, and general good nature, locked in this fruitless argument. There seemS to be some built up stress or unspoken problems that are adding fuel to the flames here. Let's try to stay away from the dangerous road of insults and attacks. The reason that this is such a heated topic is because there is no clear cut answer. Both sides have given extremely convincing examples for their reasoning, and none of it is flawed.

I have never been more impressed by an online community. This forum (and M.A.I.L. I'm sure, although I spend less time there), is full of an amazing group of individuals from distinct backgrounds. It provides us with variety, unlimited perspective, and an atmosphere of family. Remember, we are artists in our own ways, and we will always be protective of our art. Let this place remain our own haven from the worries of losing our creative spark to another. While this topic may be stirring up our darker sides as we debate furiously over rights and morals, keep in mind that we are still referring to the "outside world," and that at the end of the day, these forums will still be a place to share and learn.

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On the subject of pottery, it isn't just the glazes that distinguish one artist from one another. Yes, artists create new glazes, sometimes they keep the recipes secret, and sometimes they don't. I have the recipes for several of Sam Chung's glazes, so he can't be trying to hard to keep them a secret. The way potters keep originality is through the entire piece, the way it is thrown, the way it is modified, the way it is fired, and finally the way it is glazed.

Now the way these same potters make money is through their name. If Sam Chung, Warren Mackenzie, and I were to make the EXACT same piece Warren's would sell for hundreds or thousands or dollars, as would Sam's, mine might be worth 30$ tops.

Now, this brings me to my actual point. Maybe artist who do this for a living, Legba, BW, would find placing little tags or charms on their work, say similar to what Coach, or Tiffany does useful. The reason being, as this thread shows, short of never showing the design, it is near impossible to keep people from copying said design. This would be a way of keeping a piece yours, because if someone copied the "tag" as well, not only would it be obvious they copied your work, but it also may constitute fraud. You may not be able to keep people from copying your work, but at least the customer could distinguish your work from a knockoff.

Just a thought.

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Lawless Lady, Ouch! A little harsh, don't you think?

......................

Blaise, I’m going to ask you a question and I want to you to really give some thought before you answer it.

What did you find harsh exactly? My response to Cynake’s comments?

Or was it the way I did it by picking apart every sentence that he said?

I tend to think that the harshness of my comments were magnified by the WAY I did it.

You have NO idea how I hated to do that. In responding to his post in this manner, I admit to being a hypocrite, but I did it deliberately and with forethought. My intention was to give him a taste of his own medicine. I think it’s a horrible way to behave in the Forum and I think it’s incredibly insulting to the person who made the original post.

But how am I the bad guy here? If it’s okay for Cynake to be "harsh" and pick apart everything people say, sentence by sentence, why isn’t it okay for me to do it?

In response to your comments, you indicated that my analogy to the pottery glaze is flaw but it’s possible that I didn’t get my point across in the way I intended, so let me try again.

Pottery artists don’t keep it secret because they know they “don’t have a right to it”.. they keep it secret as a way of protecting their livelihood. If I make a lime green glaze and it’s the hot colour and everyone wants to buy lime green pots, and I’m the only one with lime green pots, I’ve protected artistic efforts and my livelihood by not sharing the recipe for the glaze.

The point I was trying to make with the pottery is that glaze recipes are very proprietary and aren't as easy as you might think to replicate one. If I sold a lime green pot, without giving you my recipe for the same colour, it's very doubtful that you could come up with the exact same colour. Again, that might be a bad example, but you get the idea. If my colour was so distinctive that anyone could recognize it, then they would know it was MY work, and regardless of how many "OLIVE green" pots you made, people would know they were not MY original pots, and that my ORIGINAL pots are LIME Green. There’s nothing wrong with the analogy.. but perhaps my way of explaining it didn’t come across as I intended, to some people. I’m sure others understood my point just fine :)

With respect to your second point, sure others can try to reproduce something freely shown on the internet or where ever. That doesn’t give them the right to say it’s their original design. As Deanna Kittrell said in her post, when she wrote the tutorial for the magazine, she knew she was giving up her rights to it. Anyone who posts pictures on the internet *should* know they are doing the same, but it still doesn’t make it right for someone to come along and say that it’s their own original idea.

I’m not really sure why you brought up the comment about calling Cynake hypocritical. It wasn’t because I disagree with him. It’s because he said that Ess and BW take from the forum, but don’t contribute to the forum. Aside form the fact that it simply isn’t true, I haven’t seen Cynake contribute anything except his opinion in most cases. It didn’t seem fair that he would make that comment when he’s never shared any of his work except the Chalk Wrapping. (okay, and yes that was a low blow, I concede that). But that’s why I called him a hypocrite. And again, if YOU have invented the overlap split, and written tutorials, etc. how does that make Cynake’s argument more reasonable? If anything it makes mine more reasonable. You are contributing to the forum. BW and Ess do the same. I’m not really clear on why you think that I would consider you a hypocrite? If I read your comments correctly, it seems more like you side with me than with him on this particular point.

I agree with you that “reason is reason”, although I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm approaching Godwin's Law. For the most part, I believe myself to be a reasonable and respectful person and would never go that far.. but then, maybe you weren't referring to me? I haven’t seen much "reason" coming from Cynake. Mostly, I’ve seen a lot of comments made to disparage Ess and BW and tell they have no rights, but no facts to back it up.

With respect to Cynakes “screw rights” comment, how is it that you can take those two small words and build a whole paragraph explaining what you *think* he meant, and phrase it more politely than I have ever seen Cynake, himself do, try to cast Cynake in teh best possible light, and yet you couldn’t understand the anology I was trying to make about proprietary pottery glaze to original proprietary jewellery designs? I took him at his word.. he said “Screw rights”.. based on that comment, my argument is relevant. If he HAD written what you wrote, then my response would likely have been very different.

I believe that it is impossible to protect the community without protecting the rights of the individuals in the community. If we don’t have respect for one another as artist.. if we don’t grant each other the same rights that we would expect for ourselves, how would the community survive? If an international law was enforced taking away all intellectual property rights of the artist, yes, as artists (*at least as far as the real ones go*) tthey would still go on with their art, but I don't believe it would happen in a community. Everyone would be very careful about sharing their original work. We would all be starting from scratch in each project. We would revert to becoming apprentices in a dying art. If the rights of the individual aren’t respected, the community won't exist. In a community, people work together. No one would want to share anything that they felt they could make money from. We would all keep our monopolies.

I for one, don’t agree with your last paragraph. And I can’t see the difference between stealing say a picture, and stealing a jewellery design.

Monet painted “Water Lilies”. If I “stole” that painting by reproducing it and not giving credit/royalties to Monet, would that be wrong?? YES!!

How is that any different that if Monet had painted his famous Water Lilies on a canvas cuff bracelet and I “stole” that idea instead? I honestly don’t see the logic here. The material doesn’t matter. Rings are rings. Beads are beads. It’s the way we configure those items into new, challenging, exciting and inspirational ways that make it original and proprietary and that’s why artists like BW and Ess should have intellectual property rights to their own creations.

Now.. to finish off, please go back and read my first few paragraphs again. I don’t believe I responded anymore harshly to you (with the exception of the “low blow” about the chalk wrapping, which I admit to) than I did to Cynake. But it sure feels and sounds different doesn't it? The difference is I didn’t tear your post apart bit by bit the way Cynake does for everyone else.

This is it for me too. My posts are getting as long as Cynakes and I don't want to bore everyone to death with my opinion. Blaise, I'm more than happy to discuss this further in PM's.

LL

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