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Legba3

ATTENTION all weave inventors

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*Wall of text crits You for 9999*

*You die*

*Dies a horrible death with fire and rocks*

Great googly moogly, and my wife wonders why I rarely post the stuff I do, if at all. (because its all fairly pedestrian stuff when compared to most everything posted here, but because I never want to be accused of 'stealing / copying / being inspired by so-and-so's piece')

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LL, I agree we're getting a bit wide afield here, and as I said before, no disrespect was intended.

Mostly, my "harsh" comment was simply in regard to your attack on Cynakes work, or perceived lack thereof, nothing else.

However, while your explanation of the potter/glaze point was perfectly clear the first time, and even more so the second, my point was that it is a bad analogy as regards a maille artist.

As you yourself say, looking at a glaze does not explain how the glaze was produced, while looking at a piece of maille *DOES*. In order to keep your maille designs secret, you must immediately upon completion lock them in a box and toss the box in a deep, deep hole, so that no one will ever see them, and then vow never to even describe them to another person. If looking at a glaze told you how the glaze was made, glaze recipes would be public property too.

To the previous posts asking for clarification on why someone would think that maille art does not have the same protection as, say, sculpture, I say:

Yes, reproducing a piece of art in-toto is probably stealing, but calling a combination of known weaves with some common crystals thrown in a unique piece of art is like saying "I put really narrow red and yellow stripes on this canvas, really close together. I am the first to do it, so henceforth all paintings using closely spaced red and yellow stripes are derivative of my work, and should pay me royalties". In the world of patents, they would call this "obvious" from "prior art", and deny the claim.

I'm not saying that reproducing a piece of maille sculpture or a complex and original inlay to a high degree of accuracy would not run afoul of copyright, I'm saying that most maille pieces don't fall into that category. There's a line somewhere in there that would have to be decided by legal precedent, but I would submit that anything that doesn't immediately jump out as "wow, no one's ever done anything like this before" is probably not protected.

To use the obvious example that's been pointed out here, "Crystal River" is a pattern composed of three well known elements(suspended crystal, japanese 4-1, and byzantine), all of which have been combined with one another before by other artists, although possibly not in this precise pattern.

It is not a sculpture, it's just a pretty pattern. For it to be a protected work of art, it would have to be made into something, like a necklace, inlay, sculpture, etc. If it *were* made into that, then you might make a case that using that particular pattern to make that particular piece violated the originator's rights (I still think you'd lose in court), but it would only apply to that specific configuration.

But then, what would be protected? Not "a bracelet made of maille", you'd be laughed out of court. Not "Crystal River", which for legal purposes would probably be defined as a weave. Only specifically something like "The sculpture named 'Bob in Chains'" would be protected. And at that, it would *still* be subjective as to what would have to change to make something enough different not to run afoul of the protection.

In the end, like my lawyer said, in civil court, the one with the most money wins...

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And since I haven't had a chance to throw my legal interpretitions in yet :) ... let me preface this by saying that I am also not a laywer, although I have studied it a bit, and make quite a few searches on Canadian law as it applies to copyrights (and chainmaille specifically). That out of the way ... this is one of the more interesting Canadian Decisions that I've found:

...snip...

I too was going to post this legal challenge too but never had time all weekend. :P I'll add in a bit more detail from it from a Globe & Mail (Canadian business newspaper) article I found cached online.

Basically, the company - Pyrrha - claimed that an import vendor had copied their jewelry designs and were reproducing them and selling them for less than half the original price at discount vendors. Pyrrha claims many major celebs among their client list so they were quite concened. After something like five years of legal challenges and over $30,000 in legal fees the case was dismissed as Dunedon stated. It was settled out of court for an undisclosed amount.

The defendant challenged Pyrrha on something like more than 10,000 separate design issues and basically was trying to bury them under paper. The original vendor is a company, from what I can tell, that has sales in the tens of thousands of dollars per year. Sure it sucks to have your creativity copied and reproduced by someone else, but somehow I doubt many people here, even all banded together, have the $30,000+ and five years to spend in court.

I'd say, if you're going to post something online, be assured that someone, somewhere is probably going to copy it. Does it suck? Sure it does. But all of us to some degree have borrowed, been inspired by or been motivated by something we saw somewhere.

Griffin

Who's only making this one and only post on a topic that has been beaten to death and that needs to go off quietly into the sunset...

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I agree with only part of this.. share your knowledge. Ess and BW are VERY good about sharing their knowledge. Look back on any of their posts and you will see how helpful they are.

When did I ever call this into dispute? Of course they are. They're nothing but helpful. Further, they've had people directly rip off their designs, repeatedly and all they've decided to do about it is not release a complete spec for their projects.

Please be more careful before putting words into my mouth. People hate me enough just for disagreeing with them or being critical, I don't need people hating me for flaming them when I'm doing just the opposite... and it's kinda hard to fight my way back from that if I get a reputation for it.

What *you* were saying was that they were doing the smart thing and pulling their designs. Which, I said, first, they're not doing. Second, my disagreement was with your general advice to people that they all "act smart" and do the same (well, what you perceived to be the same, which is further than what they say they're actually doing) if they feel threatened.

Let’s take the flip side of that. How many of us would actually BOTHER to do something?

Enough to create the collective knowledgebase of MAIL. A non-trivial amount to be sure.

Percentage-wise? Low/Medium I'd say.

But, what is the benefit any one person has received from that sharing? Far greater, so even if the percentages are low, the benefits still vastly outweigh what any one person could donate on their own and "lose", if one is to consider information shared a "loss".

What’s hypocritical, in my opinion, Cynake, is to chatise someone for “keeping secrets” when your own contribution to the creative aspects of this community is wrapped Billiard Chalk.

So this is a pissing contest now?

Is that your argument?

My contributions have been insignificant, so my reasoning holds no value?

Whoop. Great. I'd defend that with, oh, 300 pages worth of text to the contrary, but *MY* argument certainly isn't "Everyone listen to me and do what I say because I've contributed more than you", and I couldn't care less what you think of me after another snear attack like that. If it really matters that much to you, PM me and I'll embarrass you a little further.

Last time you didn't like something I said, I thought it quite reasonable and wanted to change, so I asked for and welcomed your criticism, and you elected to leave me none. Just another snear now.

EXCUSE ME?? “Screw rights”??

Blaise hit this close to on the head.

Go re-read what I said. Here I am defending people's rights for pages and saying how much it sucks when something you designed gets stolen.. and then what.. I suddenly make a completely contradictory statement to throw rights out the window? Perhaps that was worth a pause to consider if that is more likely, or is it more likely you mis-read it before you start casting fireballs? I dunno, I sure would.

The issue of "rights" was pretty much closed, but you went on about how it's well within someone's rights to not share their designs. I said "Screw rights" because *OBVIOUSLY* it's within your rights to not share. What's the alternative? That you are bound by law to show everyone everything you make? How absurd is that to claim? So, it doesn't need to be said, or argued, whether it's within their rights.

The issue, was ethics. Sure you can choose to exclude people from what you've made. Is it ethical to do that when you've gotten where you are because others *did* share? An open question for everyone to consider. But remember how fiercely everyone came down on acting ethically to credit people when it was *them* losing out.

As to me "picking apart everything people say"... you are wrong in my intentions it seems.

You see criticism or disagreement as a personal attack. And, you chose to respond and give me a taste of my own medicine by making a personal attack back at me.

By me "picking people's posts apart"... your item of contention is what? I'm being too thorough? I'm too... competant? I'm too convincing? I'm being too clear by selectively quoting each separate argument and my disagreement to it?

I know no other way of disagreeing, and no better way. It's called quoting and replying. The only fault I see in it is that I'm not concise enough. I've been working on that steadily for the last few years, but I don't want to sacrifice thoroughness or clarity. There are plenty of other people who jump in uninformed, give a quick opinion and jump out. I'm cool being the guy that spends more time discussing issues I care about and that have far-reaching consequences.

Someone has an opinion or makes a claim about the truth. I have a different one. I quote what's relevant, clip what I can, and write why I disagree or why that reasoning is poor or why those facts are false.

That's what healthy discussion where people disagree is about. If someone else "picks apart" my posts, I don't get upset. I respect them for the quality of their argument. They disagree, and said why. Ta da, end discussion, unless they offer something new that I can provide new reasoning against, and then they make the same decision.

Honest to god this is the only place people get their panties in a twist over disagreements and take it as a personal attack. Everywhere else I get comments about how level-headed and clear I am, and remain, in the midst of even heated arguments.

I wanted to post a bit of a summary and to narrow down what's resolved and what people are still talking about, but, whatever. Argue away. Go nuts. I'm sick of defending myself from public personal attacks on nonsensical claims, who have the gall to brag about it and how deliberate it was to everyone else to boot.

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After something like five years of legal challenges and over $30,000 in legal fees the case was dismissed as Dunedon stated. It was settled out of court for an undisclosed amount.

OK, hold on a sec here. Maybe there's a difference between how US and Canadian judgments are done...or maybe I'm just confused. TO ME at least, settling out of court is akin to an admission of guilt. Similar to a plea bargan without the jail time or the mark on your record. Dismissed is also, to me, different from settling out of court.

Either way, I take it that the one forging got 'spanked'. Even if it wasn't fully by the legal system.

Gaanon

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Me too.

I really don't want to be labeled a trouble maker but I think that Long Canyon are doing wrong by all of us.

Agreed, wholeheartily agree. I'd agree with a class action against them for copywrite infringement, but they don't have anything of mind on there so I wouldn't be of any help.

With them using the name "Aura Weave", and "Crystal River", it's clear that they stole the jewelry ideas from at least the two of you. If they independantly came up with the Jewelry design, what an amazing coincidence that they came up with exactly the same name for "their" designs.

They are clearly stealing from those of us on this forum and on MAILLE that are kind enough to share with the community.

some people sound like they're in on the take from Long Canyon by the sound of a couple individual's posts.... I'm sure that's not the case though. where s Long Canyon's input to all of this, someone mentioned that they are members here.....

Something to keep in mind as well. EVERYTHING that we write, create, etc is copyritten. Yes, even this post by me is under full US copywrite. It all comes down to upholding your rights, or not. If someone were to copy this entire message, remove my name and put theirs, would I enforce my rights? Probably not, as it's insignificant to me. Now, I am a co-author of a Malware book (AVIEN malware defense guide for the enterprise, it's on amazon if anyone's interested ). If someone were to copy a chapter or a page out of that book without permission, would I enforce my rights? You betcha I would! (Well, it get complicated because my publisher actually owns the rights to what I wrote, but you get the idea....)

It's the same with a jewelry design or other form of artwork. If you don't enforce your rights to the design, you give them up and loose them. Yes, this comes straight from the publisher's lawyers....

Mike B

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Something to keep in mind as well. EVERYTHING that we write, create, etc is copyritten. Yes, even this post by me is under full US copywrite.

Um, What? This is a public forum, on a website that you don't own, which I would bet a considerable sum of money that the servers are not in the US. You have no legal right to anything you post on this forum. (Save maybe the pictures, but I wouldn't count on it). You give up all rights by posting here. Logically what you've said is every time you speak, this forum is in essence speaking, what you say is protected and you're own creation. You seem to have gotten lost.

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I know I'm a little late coming into this but hey, had to say something.

The issue, was ethics. Sure you can choose to exclude people from what you've made. Is it ethical to do that when you've gotten where you are because others *did* share? An open question for everyone to consider. But remember how fiercely everyone came down on acting ethically to credit people when it was *them* losing out.

I think given the open nature of the chainmail world at the moment that statement is the bitter truth. Carbon copy of designs is A) unethical B) unavoidable. Some poeple are going to do it, even claim it's theirs, even sell the design. But I ask is the fight for your own rights worth so much that you would jeapordise the advancement of artistic insight by stopping people from using weaves/design elements because you came up with them? In principle it may well be your intellectual property but shared knowledge benefits any one person far more than relying on your own discoveries only.

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If you don't enforce your rights to the design, you give them up and loose them. Yes, this comes straight from the publisher's lawyers....

Mike B

Then it's time to get new, better informed lawyers.

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Just chiming in to say (Ahem!) that I agree with Loopy on this -- people do arrive at the same/similar designs through the practice of messing around with rings. History, here, has shown that to be true.

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Just chiming in to say (Ahem!) that I agree with Loopy on this -- people do arrive at the same/similar designs through the practice of messing around with rings. History, here, has shown that to be true.

Ok last post here from me I promise.

Yes that's true however giving something the same name as well is beyond belief.

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For all of those interested in this issue, check out this site on world copyright and Intellectual Property:

http://www.wipo.int/copyright/en/faq/faqs.htm#ideas

It answers a ton of questions, in plain english (spanish and other languages too)

Mike B

Sorry Exibar, although the site does have some information on it, in reality it "answers" none of the questions ... since it takes an overall advisory approach, and clearly states that national copyright laws may differ from these international conventions, and that national laws will take precedence in the nation under which the copyright is being challenged.

Ultimately it's up to each nations case law to form precidents for dealing with these issues, each on it's own merits, until a body of case law has reached a point where overridding precident is established ... until then each judge can inturpret the copyright legislation as needed to resolve the dispute before them.

In Canada, we arn't there yet for articles such as jewellery ... there haven't been enough cases tried to establish precident ... maybe someday :)

- Dunedon

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Legba, I think you miss my point -- to claim that weave's NAME as yours is fine, but to claim the weave as yours is not-as-fine. As we discussed before, the genesis of that weave (for me, anyway) lies in the archives of MAIL and was by 14 Gauge Designs -- something close to that. There was no other name associated, and I dug around for one. We had the discussion of agreeing to call it Aura for your daughter, but the weave was pre-existing. It may have been less than ideal manners for her to not have asked for your permission to use the name, but if you are going to throw things out there as a tutorial on MAIL with a name associated, I think it's giving up a certain amount of control over what is then done with them. My experience with Long Canyon -- although limited -- has always been that she is an ethical person who has tried to do right by other people.

I'm sorry you felt otherwise.

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It is the internet. By posting something on the internet you automatically agree to and lose all implied privacy, individuality, and profitability rights.

After this post and several like it, I contacted the copyright office. Here is their reply. Underlines mine.

Copyright protects works of authorship, such as literary, artistic and musical works. The author automatically owns the copyright in a work he or she creates. The protection exists whether the work is in hard copy or on the Internet.

For further information, see:

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html

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That is of course assuming that by registering for this board you didn't forfeit all those rights to protect TRL from litigation.

Before there's a panic, this is the form you have to read and click "I agree" before you can register.

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Forum Rules

Registration to this forum is free! We do insist that you abide by the rules and policies detailed below. If you agree to the terms, please check the 'I agree' checkbox and press the 'Register' button below. If you would like to cancel the registration, click here to return to the forums index.

Although the administrators and moderators of The Ring Lord's Chainmail Forum will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this forum, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of The Ring Lord's Chainmail Forum, nor Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.

By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

The owners of The Ring Lord's Chainmail Forum reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason.

***********************

No one signed away their rights to their designs or images.

LL

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I remember the good old days when the community didn't sound like a group of disgruntled four year olds shouting "mine." I think if this trend continues that the chainmaille world is going to become more fragmented and selfish, and the art as a whole is going to suffer.

It is good to be proud of what you have created, but shouting copyright when someone makes a similar design is fairly childish. It was once a compliment to say "I'll try that someday." Now I think of it as an admission of guilt. So get off your height enhancing mechanisms and have some fun.

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I find it rather ludicrous that he's selling instructions for E4-1 or Spiral chain for $10 each.

I wish he had a forum so I could just post 'Yo, go check out Maille Artisans!' all over the place... since y'know... everything from his site is both credited AND free there.

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I find it rather ludicrous that he's selling instructions for E4-1 or Spiral chain for $10 each.

I wish he had a forum so I could just post 'Yo, go check out Maille Artisans!' all over the place... since y'know... everything from his site is both credited AND free there.

I'm probably of the minority here, but his free tutorials look pretty decent to me. Pictures are well taken, and instructions are clear. If he's stolen a tutorial and is selling it that's clearly wrong. But for him to sell a tutorial that he took the pictures for, and wrote without plagarizing anyone else, I don't see why he can't sell the tutorials for $10. Just because the rest of us usullay sell a bag of rings and a clasp to go along with an E4-1 tutorial that makes a bracelet for the same price, doesn't make what he's doing wrong, just different than what we're used to.

Oh, with that said, Phong's stuff is much much better! and so are most of what I've seen come from the rest of us. Especially when they're free for the download on Maille or here, which makes them 1000000's of times better ;-)

Mike B

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Ok..so I haven't read this thread since my initial post back on page one. However giving this a skim through I feel that it is important to point out that this is the reason artists *sign* thier work. To prove who did it and thus making it orignal. With things like painting or sculpting its a little harder to copy somthing due to the skill involved being highly personal. With maille the ambiguity lies in the fact that we are all working with the same unit and the only difference is in arrangment and size. As a result the combinations of base units are limited and as a result the only way to make something individual is to prove you made it.

As side effect many people look to mass media to prove things like this. The larger the name the more credit it is given. I've come up with alot of things that I threw in the junk bin that I've later see come up as "original" pieces or weaves. Just like everyone here has likely done. And as for weave varients..I've stopped even considering them new. I posted some not-so-nice pics of a necklace a while back displaying a "weave" that has not been used before in my knowledge. I know at some later date someone is going to come along and claim they came up with it. They may have and likely did on thier own. This is why I don't claim original pieces anymore or ever unless it is something very elaborate and intricate.

This is also why places like Tiffany put thier name on everything. Half of what they sell is curb chain or similar simple chains used for decades/centuries in the jewelry world with mild embelishments but all have one thing in common: thier logo. Even they recognize that with such limited materials to work with there will be overlap, so in order to make thier pieces unique they add that identification tag. This illustrates my point quite nicely I think. Much of what I see on thier site I could find in Rio's catalouges in various pieces or complete sets(minus the tag).

Long story short there is going to be overlap. Nobody can prevent it. Just like the pottery example, the name sells the piece. It gives a guarantee of quality and workmanship. As for the tutorials in question there is nothing illegal about them as far as I can tell. They are all productions written and photographed by the people selling them. That means the product being sold is created and copyright by the author. The jewelry peices themselves are not being sold.(in the case of specific pieces.)

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