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galil86

Chainmail Computer Program?

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I was just wondering if there was one that you could put in what weave you were going to do, what materials you were going to use, and things like that. I was thinking that it would be good to have so that you can easily figure out how much a project would cost, how much you should charge, and so on. If there isn't one is there any intrest for one so that one could be made.

This was just a random thought that I had and was wondering what the rest of the world thought. Let me know what you think.

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There are no programs like that, yet.

It is difficult to make an accurate program like that due to the variations present in even the base component of rings. Each material has different springback, and this has yet to be resolved in an equation form that I have seen. Furthermore, slight AR differences can have substantial effects on ring counts for weaves. There is also no garauntee that the stats used by the programmer would be even reasonably close to what a mailler might have in front of his/her self. Rings can take on different springback based on how it was coiled and cut.

While I'm sure there is great interest in getting something like this, the practicality of producing an accurate program is the primary reason that one does not exist.

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Being a mailer and an engineer/programing student I would be willing to work on a prototype (thus the main reason I was wondering if there was an intrest). I've seen what some of the engineering programs can do and it's INSANE:eek: The program (unless turned over to professionals) would be a rough estimate that would be inheriently designed overestimate ring count. Like you said there as so many variables it's hard to get anything accurate. Again just looking for points of view, pros, cons, and intrest.

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Just use excel. How it works depends on how you want to price your piece. Specifically you would have to enter in all variables you want to charge on, how much you want for each one and then write up an equation to express that. Easy enough to do, just time consuming to make up, in addition to all variables having to be calculated out in full. For example there is no way to write a formula that I know of to accurately give a ring count on byzantine for every concievable ring size.(aka enter ring size and get a ring count) This is just for the simple fact that too many dimensions change with each ring size, the hardest to calculate being ring angle within the weave which would dictate how far each ring advances the weave, in addition to having multiple angles needing calculation. Therefore you would have to come up with standard sizes and specific ring count for each size and then possibly interpolate between them.

A simpler way to do it is also to create a spreadsheet that prices things by the inch for a size and weave. These prices would have to be calculated in advance factoring in time/materials etc and just act as quick-step pricing system.

No matter how you do it though there is no magical program that gives you a price because its highly individual as to how and what is charged in addition to ring count being extremely variable based on ring size.

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M.A.I.L. currently has 776 weaves. There are hundreds of metal/wire size/ring size combinations. Making even a simple database of the 30 (picking a number out of the air)most common weaves and the most common ring sizes for each weave then calculating rings per inch for every combination would be a daunting task to say the least.

Weave, ring size(s)/AR(s), and rings per inch would be the minimum data needed to calculate material cost. Then you would also need to include rings/ft of wire for those who make their own rings. I just cannot fathom a user friendly program capable of these calculations that wouldn't take more memory and processing power than most desktop PCs have.

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I'm just doing my own Excel Spread Sheet as I go along. Each new weave I learn, gauge, size, weave, media, how many rings per ince, cost, time it takes, etc. Then at the end you can plug in your formula to calculate number of rings for project and est cost.

Since I'm new at this it's easy for me to start my excel project.

Hopefully I do it right and it works fairly well. You can never get the exact, but hopefully it will give me good enough estimates to work off in the future.

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I use an excel file I set up. I type in the wire gauge in mm, and then the AR, then the line shows me the mandrel size and how much wire per ring. I do need the ring count, so the rest of the line shows me metres or feet, troy/avoip ounce or gram. And I put in add 5% for 'just in case'.

I did have Aussie dollars in, but our dollar is all over the place against the USD, so I hid that one :D

I have it set up for every weave I have done, ones I want to try and know what will work, and possibilities. It started out at one page, and now stretches to five!

So far it is extremely accurate and I have very very little wastage.

DJ (very anal lady)

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If it were to be attempted you would probably need to base the program off of AR seeing as this is the most universal of measurements and gives you a lot of data with regards to possible weaves as well as ring ID or gauge. all youd need are two data points ID and wire thickness. AR and ID or AR and wire thickness you could also allow the user to determine a preset error margin of say 10% extra. I do a lot of VBA in microsoft word or excel and if ppl were kind enough to contribute the data they have collected I might be able to create something that would work pretty well.

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That's what I've kinda started doing. I've begun working on something in VBA for this kinda thing. Like you said I've found how much the AR will tell me about the ring but I'm convinced that something could be devoloped that is simillar to the AR that would say something about the density of the weave. I'm going to try and con a friend of mine (who is a math major) to see what he can find. If he finds something I think it would be a MAJOR breakthru if not we'll still be working the old fashioned way just like we have been.

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I think its the AR that will tell you what you need based on the weave its used in. And the equation will be dependent on the weave

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if not we'll still be working the old fashioned way just like we have been.

:rolleyes: You realize, we're making maille here... Old Fashioned seems to be part of the solution, not the problem. :D

In regards to a computer program written in VB versus a spreadsheet... If you're just doing simple math, a properly written spreadsheet will do far more, far easier than a piece of software will. And a smaller filesize to boot. (Not to mention, you can port it to Linux or a Mac, or even your PalmPilot far easier... *cough*OpenOffice*cough*)

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You're kidding right?? :eek:

Nope

One would not need a database of every possible calculation though. That would take a large, though by no means too extraordinarily large database to catalog. However, a much easier way would be for the program to calculate everything on the fly. It's very simple arithmetic.

For all the weaves it's be a bit of a beeyatch to mathematically describe every weave, but, meh.

For weaves you did have, it would be really easy to figure out. Even a little java applet could handle the calculations to expand some given figures out for size.

I've suggested something even fancier in the past.. to generate images of weaves at various ARs and load those up, so you can see what a weave would look like before you build it out of whatever you choose to. The way I figured you'd do this is to build a weave once in something like Solidworks, then hang one end and apply gravity, and then wait until things had settled. Then either take a snapshot right there, or have it export the resting ring positions to something that some rending app could then render.

I was even thinking of hooking it right up to TRL, so it could become a "project builder", and when you were done, it'd just spit out a list of everything you needed, or you could just click "buy it all" and have the whole lot mailed to you with one click.

Building weaves wouldn't be too hard. After that, it's just a matter of getting some computers to crunch the sims and renders. And once done, wouldn't need to be done ever again.

It would be a trivial matter to include the actual spec measurements up for display. TRL has a calculator that already does a few weaves, and they've experimentally determined many of rings per square footage and rings per pound. You still have to manually find and punch in the numbers, and it's not plugged into their prices either, but, it's not bad.

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I am looking for something like this not for counting rings but for putting different color rings into a pattern is there something like this? 

 

for instance, I could choose that I want to make a chain mail shirt, I put in my sizes that it asks for and then upload a picture file that it puts over the armor picture. I then position where I want it and it then tells me exactly where to place the different colored rings to bring the emblem to life on the armor. Is there such a thing anywhere? 

 

could someone email me ? arthurrw@gmail.com

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thread resurrection!  what your asking would be - very complicated, to say the least.  the best alternative would be to figure out how big you want the image to be on your shirt (probably about 1 square foot, if you want it just on the front, torso area), look up on trl how many rings are in a square foot for the ring size you want, and resize your image to be that many pixels.  then you can use IGP to translate it to a ring count and map.

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For more info on IGP, see the links in my signature. Also, be aware that a hang of a shirt will distort the image - how much distortion exists depends on the body shape of the person wearing the shirt and how well-tailored the shirt is to that person. A good example of this would be Dr. T's panther shirt - the ellipse in the background was originally intended to be a circle.

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On 6/27/2016 at 0:53 PM, Zlosk said:

For more info on IGP, see the links in my signature. Also, be aware that a hang of a shirt will distort the image - how much distortion exists depends on the body shape of the person wearing the shirt and how well-tailored the shirt is to that person. A good example of this would be Dr. T's panther shirt - the ellipse in the background was originally intended to be a circle.

thank you so much for making this program. i made my inlay using it and it would have been darn near impossible for a novice such as myself

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On 04/23/2008 at 9:58 PM, Chou said:

once you've done enough maille, you get pretty good at guesstimation

That's essentially it.  A little experience, and a guess about how many pounds of steel/ounces of silver wire would be called for.  Tonnage varies with wire thickness.

While it'd be an impressive enough programming achievement, I think the time and effort of it would be misapplied:  the time taken is time NOT making mail, keeping a bit of a log of your hours spent, and calculating a price for the piece on the back of an envelope.  Little more brain-strain than that seems needed, particularly for ancient tech such as mail.  Even more ancient than this thread... I wonder whether Galil ever found a practical way to do his scheme?  I guess we'd've heard of it by now if he had.

Edited by Konstantin the Red

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On 7/6/2017 at 5:28 PM, VallKill said:

Iv seen programs that translate an image into crosstich pattern. Is there a similar program for translating an image into a scale pattern?

One of the patterns in IGP is scales. However, IGP requires the initial image to be resized (1 pixel = 1 scale) and posterized (lowering the number of colors in the image to the number of your materials).Various paint applications (such as GIMP or Paint.NET, both available for free) are capable of doing this.

On 7/6/2017 at 11:20 PM, KrombopulosMichael said:

thank you so much for making this program. i made my inlay using it and it would have been darn near impossible for a novice such as myself

You're welcome.

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On 4/23/2008 at 11:48 AM, galil86 said:

Being a mailer and an engineer/programing student I would be willing to work on a prototype (thus the main reason I was wondering if there was an intrest). I've seen what some of the engineering programs can do and it's INSANE:eek: The program (unless turned over to professionals) would be a rough estimate that would be inheriently designed overestimate ring count. Like you said there as so many variables it's hard to get anything accurate. Again just looking for points of view, pros, cons, and intrest.

Yes, I'm interested. Something like this would make a lot of my projects much easier (I hate running out of rings before the project is done...).

I hope others will answer this question also.

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14 hours ago, wolfe said:

Yes, I'm interested. Something like this would make a lot of my projects much easier (I hate running out of rings before the project is done...).

I hope others will answer this question also.

Likely it would need those other interested parties, wolfe.  Galil86 originated this thread back in 2008.  If anyone's done anything exactly like it, or made progress on this idea, I've not heard of it.  For me, it also has to overcome the hurdle I mentioned in a post up-thread.

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