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Kaejo

market for a saw cutting rig

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More importantly, what is your CAD guy smoking that it costs $600-$1,200 for a 3D workup? I think your CAD guy may be mad at you.

Affinityofmist brings up a good point, most machine rigs need manual input for part manufacturing anyway, so 3-view tends to be sufficient. I sat down with a machinist friend and designed complex interlocking components on the back of a phonebook. Maybe you've jumped into a whole new realm of super high technology breakthroughs? I hope so, that would be an amazing ring rig! =)

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More importantly, what is your CAD guy smoking that it costs $600-$1,200 for a 3D workup? I think your CAD guy may be mad at you.

YOWZA... I do a full 3D Workup, and rendering of a theatre set for less than that... Far more complex as well.

Machined parts, I could turn out in my sleep, I know this for a fact... And he's charging you what?! I'd find another CAD guy.

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ok, so the 2-D drawings it turns out are concept drawings and not detailed enough for the machinist.

The engineer's rates are $65/hour and the machine shop is $75/hour. If you know anyone that charges less in Portland metro area, is good at what they do, and in the case of the machine shop, does small runs (necesary for the prototyping process), by all means, let me know. These guys were recommended to me through various sources, but I'm trying to do this with as little cost as possible so that the end price is reasonable. As it stands now, with hi-ball estimates, I'm looking at a minimum of $900 each for me to do more than break even if I do a run of 100 at a time, which doesn't sit right with me. I want to make the best rig possible at the most reasonable price possible. I won't sacrifice quality, but I want it to be reasonably priced so anyone that wants one can afford one.

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The engineer's rates are $65/hour and the machine shop is $75/hour. If you know anyone that charges less in Portland metro area, is good at what they do, and in the case of the machine shop, does small runs (necesary for the prototyping process), by all means, let me know.

Hrm. I know machinists with not much to do, an insufficient pension, and small mills in their garage. Depends what you need done. Not in Portland, but, west coast yeah.

I want to make the best rig possible at the most reasonable price possible. I won't sacrifice quality, but I want it to be reasonably priced so anyone that wants one can afford one.

Aha. So you're looking for a top-of-the-line machine, as cheap as possible?

This started off more as a decent-quality low/mid-cost machine. I don't know many maillers who'd pay $900 for a cutter. That's just.. too too too much.

Martin's rig, posted recently, re-using a drill press (or at least a generic motor later), and rehacking Harmony's coil guide to be a beefier one, is a tiny fraction of the cost of yours.

Other notes.. First, I cringed at $300. $900 is.. just too much.

What we would really need, if you want to sell a really really high end machine, is proof that it's high end. That means a prototype sent out to someone who's tried many other setups and knows their standards. They can report back on how it performs. And it better be *flawless*

*IF* you get proof of that, you *might* have a market. I dunno how many you'd sell, maybe 20 eventually? But if you don't get proof, you'll get maybe 1 buyer, if that.

Something is not sitting right with me here. I just don't see where all the money is going. :(

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I'm actually already talking to Spider ( http://www.spiderchain.com/ ) about testing in the prototype stage. Also, I don't want it to cost $900. I'm shooting for closer to $600 if I can get lower without sacrificing quality, I will. I'm just telling you what the cost may be if I continue working with the people I have been. I am going to start looking at other machine shops. As far as quality goes, yes, I want it to be the best machine intended for home or small shop use.

To give you an idea of costs on production. So far, the parts that don't need to be machined are going to run about $330 USD, That includes the motor. (And you would be amazed how difficult it was to find a motor that will do the job and at a reasonable price) To save on cost, I am going to be making the motor controler myself from a kit and assembeling the machine from parts myself as well.

All that said, I would be interested to hear from anyone that works in or owns a machine shop that would like to bid. If so, send me a PM with your credentials and I will send a confidentiality agreement. Once I get that back we can talk.

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To give you an idea of costs on production. So far, the parts that don't need to be machined are going to run about $330 USD, That includes the motor. (And you would be amazed how difficult it was to find a motor that will do the job and at a reasonable price) To save on cost, I am going to be making the motor controler myself from a kit and assembeling the machine from parts myself as well.

I would be surprised yes. A cheap motor should be readily available. :(

How about a lathe? A lathe has all these things preassembled. Like the one on page 1, that Sithus owns? :(

All that said, I would be interested to hear from anyone that works in or owns a machine shop that would like to bid. If so, send me a PM with your credentials and I will send a confidentiality agreement. Once I get that back we can talk.

Okay, I'll ask. What is being machined by the way?

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Several points:

$900? For around $650 I can have a mini 9x12 precision lathe delivered anywhere in the lower 48 by the end of the week. Search ebay and you can get one as low as $300. And add the $75 precision coil guide I made, and thats still cheaper than yours. And you get a lathe out of the deal :P

As for patents, it better be radically different than the design Harmony has come up with, and different than the one used on the AMS. No point in blowing thousands on a patent just to get it thrown out because of prior art. And it should also be different than the feed mechanisms used on the countless other patented spring machines that exist.

That being said, I would be interested in seeing what exactly you came up with. For less than $100 retail I have a working prototype made up. All you do is pop on any motor you want.

And yes, I solved the wobble problem quite easily. I just have to wait for that drunk ass machinist to build the damn thing >.<

So really, you just need to re-evaluate exactly what you are making, what will it do, and who is it marketed to. Even $500 is out of the price range of most people that make maille. The ROI on such a machine VS savings in cost from buying from TRL would take a long time.

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ROI isn't the only picture though. New versatility counts too. But $500 is still out of the question, yeah.

"Radically Different" is hardly a matter. The tiniest change can usually dodge patents.

Patents cost tens of thousands. You will not be getting a patent.

Patents are easily dodged. Very easily. You will not protect anything.

Far better than pursing a patent is to just get to market first and solidly and build your customer base, stay ahead of competitors.

Wait on an NDA being signed maybe.. but.. an engineer can't help you do anything if you can't say anything about it.

I'm with Martin. If you can't do this for under $150.. something is very wrong. More than that, you're lookin' at just using a lathe.

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I've already stated that I'll talk to people that have signed a confidentiality agreement if they are going to work on this with me. I'm not going to post it on a public forum however. Patenting is not optional however and is worth it. Believe it or not, I have done my research in that regard. No, it doesn't have to be radically different, but no, the tiniest change isn't necessarily going to dodge a well written pattent either. As far as doing this for under $150, maybe I could if I were willing to accept the quality of some of the other machines I've seen out there that, even with their shortcomings cost more than that to make (I've priced them out). You are obviously content with less, and that's fine. I am not, and I suspect there are a number of others that are not.

I am not going to discuss patenting further in this thread, as I said, it's not optional.

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Here it is plain and simple...if it costs $600 forget it.

Most of us maillers have the resources and the knowledge to make our own cutting rigs for less than $200 and those who don't are content with using the set up they already have. (hand sawing, koil kutter, jumpringer, etc.)

If your rig is tons better than the setup that TRL and other ring suppliers use then you may sell a few, but for the average joe (which probably 90% of us are) you won't even be able to make a case with them.

I'm not saying your doing this for nothing, but trying to make this for the maille community for $600 is very impractical.

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I appreciate your opinion, however, what I see is a Koil Kutter that doesn't do harder metals, and a Jump Ringer that is nearly $500 and has some real design flaws that is almost never in stock anywhere it's sold. While a majority of people would rather make their own, I think you underestimate the size of the mailling community. Maille Artisans board has almost 9000 registered members and I'm sure there are people here that aren't registered here that are there, vice versa, and some people that aren't registered on either. Of course, I also realize some of those are likely duplicate accounts. I must say, that I am a little discouraged by some of the feedback I've gotten here, but encouraged by others. I've had someone offer to do the remaining CAD work for free already just because they want to see this get off the ground (and it was in response to the $900 price tag). As far as hand sawing, if you want saw cut rings and you want to do it yourself, then you'll see your ROI very quickly in the time you save.

At this point, I am not looking for further feedback on the idea unless you are interested in helping to get it completed. If nothing else, myself and the people that have helped me, will have prototypes of the best ring cutting rig available that isn't made for an industrial setting.

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I'm just sayin', your methodology seems flawed, and you appear to be reinventing the wheel, expensively.

Will your rig be superior to that of a lathe? Because it costs 3x as much.

What you're saying about the visible market is true. Only the people with nothing to do with their day sit around talking about maille on an internet forum. Most of the serious maillers who'd want this, are actually running a business, not chatting.

Get TRL to distribute it and you might have something.

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That was part of my intention. The plan at this point is get 1 prototype made that I will test myself to get any serious flaws addressed. 2nd prototype will be tested by myself and Spider. I'm hoping that's the end of the prototyping stages (because it's much more expensive than production) and I'll send one of the first production machines to TRL to let them test and evaluate. If they like it, I'm hoping they will distribute it. Of course, I haven't talked to anyone official here about distributing it yet, but I thought it best to wait till I'm at least through the first prototype stage.

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Don't count on it...much money invested for the idea and nothing to show us for it. It was a lost cause when it jumped to a $600-900 price tag. If he makes something available more power to him, but I don't know if it will be anytime soon. For about $1000 I can have a inexpensive bench top lathe and mill and think of literally thousands more uses for those while I'm using them to coil and cut rings for maille.

That being said, I do want to see it if and when it is produced.

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Hello All,

I have been thankful to everyone for all their help and knowledge and would like to give back with something I am working on.

I love Martin's idea for the run and Plexiglas cover. This set me to thinking of a contained mini table saw. I ran across a nice 14,000 RPM 4" table saw from Harbor Freight for $39.99. The 4" blades have a cutting depth of 3/4 inches. I have ordered 3" blades from Thurston, parts 111 .008 ($15.80) and 109 .010 ($12.50) with a .5 inch arbor. This will drop the cut to 1/4 " which should be good with most sizes we may need. The table seems to be cast aluminum and easy to drill. I drilled 4 holes for bolts and tapped it for 4 3" #10 bolts. I have cut a wood channel guide to minimize the blade space and placed 4 springs and a grooved Plexiglas top.

Things left to do as I expand this is to add a tank to hold oil for the blade to go through as well as possible drip. I may also modify the table top to allow a bit more adjustment and stability. I currently have it connected to my flex shaft foot petal but am looking at replacing the on/off button with a variable speed switch.

I plan on putting up some pictures when I am finished, provided I have not totally destroyed the first table. If I do, I will buy another and do it right.

I tested cutting 16G stainless steel with diamond blade to see if it has the power and it cuts it. Big test will be the thin blades.

Total pricelist thus far.

$39.99 4" Table Saw

$3.50 #10/32 tap

$3.00 #10/32 (6 x 3")

$1.20 #10/32 butterfly nuts(4)

$3.00 pack of Misc springs

$0.75 scrap of 1/8 in wood

$3.50 plexiglass

$54.94 Not including blades

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14,000rpm? All I can say is wear safety glasses. The second you get one of those jewelry blades up to that speed it will shatter into a billion pieces the second it touches a coil.

To cut metals you need slow speeds. For a 1.5" blade you need around 1300rpm for aluminum, and 80-150rpm for something hard like titanium. Check out the full speed tables here: http://www.ringinator.com/?page_id=53

--Martin--

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