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Maille rose

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That would be a Q for David Austin

And Dave will probably tell you what the rest of us will.

No, there is no pattern.

Actually.. I don't even need to say probably. I can quote him. From last week, In This Thread.

"If I had a dime for every time I've had someone e-mail me asking for a pattern or instructions to make my chess set, I'd probably have enough to buy everyone coffee. Ring size and type information I will provide, but instructions, no. I'm willing to wager that over half the people who've requested these instructions do not even have the resources to create all the ring sizes I used in the project. But I think a lot of people think that its easy to make if they have instructions to follow along.

What people sometimes fail to realize is that it takes much more than that. It's flattering, but a slight bit disheartening at the same time. I usually just tell those individuals that if they're at the level required to construct anything with such complexity, then they would certainly have no trouble either a) figuring it out for themselves, or B) designing their own, the latter of which I highly recommend. I don't want to see 15 copies of the same thing.. I'd rather see 15 different designs. This is how the art and industry of chainmail (or anything else, for that matter) grow.. Not by trying to duplicate something else, ring for ring."

--

To toss in my own..

If you're asking for a pattern, you're the kind of person that would be incapable of following the pattern. Particularly with sculpture, patterns just don't work. It's too much of a feel, and a work-it-out-as-you-go. Tolerances are so tight you'd think there was something wrong with the pattern.

Also, across the board, patterns are not well liked. Chainmaille is an artform, many people would be disgusted with the thought of turning it into a simple manufacturing process.

Patterns and instructions work well only at the very lowest levels, to teach basics. Tangental, that's one of the big things I want to see done at MAIL, simple projects that beginners can pick up, follow instructions on, and for sure get their results. Bracelets and necklaces are easy to follow patterns on, because there is no pattern, they're just chain weaves. Even coifs and vests could somewhat easily have instructions. Dice bags, hacky sacks, juggling balls, bras, simple inlays, etc.

Many armorers would scoff at saying a coif or vest could be done as a pattern, that they have to be tailored to the individual and so on. So even those are pushing it.

Many wraps, handflowers, and more complicated jewelry are up another order of difficulty. Shirts with sleeves, and gloves, more difficult still. None of these would work with patterns and instructions either.

At the top, is sculpture. I can't think of anything more difficult to accomplish.

--

Compare to painting. You can be taught perspective, so you know how to paint a house. You can be taught how to paint white clouds on a blue sky. You can be taught shading, maybe even skin tones. But, your question of asking for instructions on a sculptured flower, is like looking at someone's painting and saying "Huh, I'd like to make that. Can you give me a pattern to follow?" You can't. And if you could, if you're asking that, you couldn't follow it. And even if you could follow it, why would you want to? If you're capable of cloning someone else's project, you're capable of making something unique.

--

People are willing to give out all kinds of information. Far more useful, at the higher levels of difficulty, are discussions of tips and tricks to accomplishing something, not specific instructions.

For example, I'd say, if you're trying to make a rose, that small, tight E4-1, AR around 3.5 or so, would probably make good pedals. E4-1 is far more fold-able in one direction than another. So make sure you design your pedals so that they hold their shape against gravity. Making a pedal patch on a diagonal might make it look more natural.

For a stem, a common choice is Captive Inverted Round. You'll have to play around with ARs to find out what's stiff enough for you. There's probably even specific ARs mentioned out there if you poke around.

As to the actual ring sizes, patch dimensions, ring counts, colors, and all that... it's up to you to experiment and design something that works and looks well. No one can tell you how to be your kind of artist.

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If you're asking for a pattern, you're the kind of person that would be incapable of following the pattern.
I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that. It's a little broad sweeping, don't you think?

I don't want to toot my own horn, but being as technically minded as I am, I can guarantee that, if given a pattern and materials, I could replicate it. Some people are creative enough to make original items, others are able to see what someone has made and replicate it with striking accuracy.

Personally, I hate the fact that my creativity isn't nearly as honed as many here, but I've used that to my advantage. A little of this one here and a little of that one over there, now it's something original, just by using someone else's pattern and creativity.

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It's a little broad sweeping, don't you think?

*nod*. I should have prefaced it with "Generally." It's not an absolute.

I don't want to toot my own horn, but being as technically minded as I am, I can guarantee that, if given a pattern and materials, I could replicate it.

Indeed, given specific enough instructions, I would suspect I could as well.

But I meant it in the case that, if you're the kind of person that would ask for instructions on duplicating artwork, you're probably not very skilled. People who are skilled, and who have spent a lot of time making maille, don't want to clone other's projects. So you can usually infer that if someone's even asking, they're likely too incompetent experience-wise. Further, if they *need* to ask how to duplicate, and can't figure it out on their own, again, too inexperienced to pull it off.

Dave said it better, (and simpler), to requote: "if they're at the level required to construct anything with such complexity, then they would certainly have no trouble either a) figuring it out for themselves, or B) designing their own"

So, in your case, you lack the artistic vision I suppose, but have the skills to replicate. I am much the same for many many types of art.

Off on a bit of a tangent.. if I were to paint a picture of a red car, I would paint it all the same shade of red. In my head, a red car was painted with one uniform color of red paint, and so the car I paint uses all one color. Though if I actually painted that, it would just be a blob. Where, a good painting uses many shades of red to catch the angles and light. I cannot "see" in my head, how lighting affects things. I see concrete objects as they "are", not as how they appear to my eyes. So I'm an awful painter. It's not a matter of skill or effort, I have forever been unable to train my brain to see things differently.

Because of this, I never paint, so, okay, my skills at painting are probably terrible. But, if I had good skills, and good instructions, I suppose I could replicate an excellent painting.

...

However, I don't think I deserve to. I think it's disrespectful to an artist to even ask this. ( -- Now would be a good time to emphasize that I'm not talking about the thread starter, they were just asking for a rose pattern, not how to clone someone's art -- ).

Cloning of art in general, I think is disrespectful. Part of what makes art valuable is that it is a creation done with the creator's vision. It includes part of their personality in the work. To duplicate that as new art itself, is dishonest. Even to replicate it, cheapens it.

That's why I think patterns and cloning instructions are great for obvious simple pieces, or as learning exercises, but past that, it turns maille into a simple mechanical fabrication removes all artistic aspects from the product. It becomes just another product for sale, like a TV or a toilet. To request from an artist for a pattern, is to be asking that they strip the art, from their art.

Even given instructions, I would never want to use them. I *want* my work to be its own, and art itself. Maille is so labor-intensive to make, if I'm spending all that effort building a piece, why would I cheapen it by *not* making it exactly what I want or envision, to my own tastes? To end up with something someone else has done, is a waste of my time. I don't want to help people that think otherwise. The only reason I'd clone, is if I was trying to make money off a great project by manufacturing them. And so for that reason too, I think it's disrespectful to ask an artist for a pattern to their work. If anyone should be making money off their work, it's them.

It's also pretty lazy of them, and while I can respect that ( :P ), if you're going to clone my art, you can damn well, at the very least, actually put in the grunt work to try to figure out how.

Personally, I hate the fact that my creativity isn't nearly as honed as many here, but I've used that to my advantage. A little of this one here and a little of that one over there, now it's something original, just by using someone else's pattern and creativity.

That's different I think. It's a sliding scale of course, as to "how much" you're compartmentalizing and replicating, versus using elements to create your own work. It's on a smaller scale, but there is art in combining different elements together to make a new piece.

There *could* be projects that are simply frankensteined chunks of others' projects, but, I think that is not often the case. Just mechanically, actually fitting the pieces themselves together isn't easy, (in fact, that's probably the hardest part!) you need to put effort in to figure out how.

I think this is why there is so much discussion and help provided in the community. Each new technique opens more doors than it closes. Every time you do something new, explaining that helps people to take that and do something further new. For example, when the concept of captures and orbitals was "invented'. That was less than 10 years ago (as least as it relates to our community). Look at how far that has gone.

With each new technique, the possible number of projects grows. There are so many combinations that it helps the art, rather than restricting it.

I will do everything in my power to help nurture someone's vision, and give them all the tools I can to help them through the mechanical aspects of succeeding. I'll help explain what might work well, what they'll have to avoid, and what to watch out for, because I'm interesting in seeing what others can create. Others' results re-inspire me and give me new ideas (and probably techniques) to play with.

But, no patterns.

*pushes the thread back off it's tangent, shuts up*

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Let me rephrase that... Does anyone know what ring sizes and what weave would create a petal that would support it's own weight, would not be much too thick and wouldn't flop around? Once I've got the petals I can likely find a weave for the stem that will look good with them.

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What I do is create the stalk first.

Full Persian at ARs of around 4.8 - 5.0.

Captive Inverted Round (C1) at 4.7. Slightly higher would be better as this AR is a little 'too' tight, with rings pushing themselves open.

Captive Inverted Round (C2) at around 5.5 - 6.1. Ideally go just above 5.5

Those are the weaves I've used so far for this application, but any chain weave that can be made tight would be ideal.

For the leaves, I've used Dragonscale, Half Persian 3 Sheet 6 in 1, European 6 in 1 and Voodoo. You have to make it kind of curl in an upwards manner. And also attach them to the stalk in such a way that they are tight enough to not collapse down, or to the sides.

The flowering part is the most difficult, by far. It's usually a matter of much experimention until it looks right.

As for Cysnake's European 4 in 1 AR recommendation of around 3.5 for petals, I would actually bump that down to no higher than 3.2 or 3.3.

flower01_01_sm.jpg flower02_01_sm.jpg flower03_01_sm.jpg flower04_01_sm.jpg

The only one of those flowers that I based on a real flower is the third one, based on a black-eyed susan. And it turned out the worst. :) The other three came from my head.

Good luck.

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What I do is create the stalk first.

Full Persian at ARs of around 4.8 - 5.0.

Captive Inverted Round (C1) at 4.7. Slightly higher would be better as this AR is a little 'too' tight, with rings pushing themselves open.

Captive Inverted Round (C2) at around 5.5 - 6.1. Ideally go just above 5.5

Those are the weaves I've used so far for this application, but any chain weave that can be made tight would be ideal.

For the leaves, I've used Dragonscale, Half Persian 3 Sheet 6 in 1, European 6 in 1 and Voodoo. You have to make it kind of curl in an upwards manner. And also attach them to the stalk in such a way that they are tight enough to not collapse down, or to the sides.

The flowering part is the most difficult, by far. It's usually a matter of much experimention until it looks right.

As for Cysnake's European 4 in 1 AR recommendation of around 3.5 for petals, I would actually bump that down to no higher than 3.2 or 3.3.

flower01_01_sm.jpg flower02_01_sm.jpg flower03_01_sm.jpg flower04_01_sm.jpg

The only one of those flowers that I based on a real flower is the third one, based on a black-eyed susan. And it turned out the worst. :) The other three came from my head.

Good luck.

Dave (and others, Dave just seems to be the most visible) you are really practiced at sculpting. And we all acknowledge that, otherwise us "noobs" would not be asking for a pattern or your "secrets" if you will.

I was one of the people who mistakenly asked for a pattern and I was rather diappointed with the response telling me that since I was asking I would not be able to follow it. I found the comment quite disheartning... I wasnt looking at "copying" someone elses creation but wanted to figure out how it was done so that I could create my own design without having to recreate the wheel. (not always easy to do from a picture posted on the internet).

It wasn't until I finished my first basket that I realized what was meant by the comment. In hind-sight My question should have been more like: What AR's were used for each weave? Are there any quarks I need to be aware of when constructing a sculpture?

Dave, thanks for the above post, This is the type of information that will help those of us newer to this ART/CRAFT create our own sculptures and one day be at the level you are now.

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shivan911: I'm glad you found the information useful. This is why I also have the Weave AR chart on my website (link in sig). I figure, why horde all the AR information to myself when it can help other people. I really do like to see people experiment with sculpture. It's always interesting to see how another person can utilize different weaves and connection strategies to come up with unique things.

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Dave (and others, Dave just seems to be the most visible) you are really practiced at sculpting. And we all acknowledge that, otherwise us "noobs" would not be asking for a pattern or your "secrets" if you will.

I was one of the people who mistakenly asked for a pattern and I was rather diappointed with the response telling me that since I was asking I would not be able to follow it. I found the comment quite disheartning... I wasnt looking at "copying" someone elses creation but wanted to figure out how it was done so that I could create my own design without having to recreate the wheel. (not always easy to do from a picture posted on the internet).

It wasn't until I finished my first basket that I realized what was meant by the comment. In hind-sight My question should have been more like: What AR's were used for each weave? Are there any quarks I need to be aware of when constructing a sculpture?

Dave, thanks for the above post, This is the type of information that will help those of us newer to this ART/CRAFT create our own sculptures and one day be at the level you are now.

I thought those comments were uncalled for and inaccurate. I'm glad you weren't put off and I look forward to seeing what you make.

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incidentally dave, did you ever get the mm2 layout fully assembled?

Not quite. I'm about 45,000 rings in and still going strong. It should be done between January and April 2008.

I thought those comments were uncalled for and inaccurate. I'm glad you weren't put off and I look forward to seeing what you make.

I hope my comments didn't offend anyone. The original quote regarding the chess set was taken from another thread on another board in reference to a conversation other than what was originally brought up in this thread.

Just to clarify my intentions, I, personally never assumed anyone was asking for an exact pattern in this case, although I've had many e-mails asking for this (usually over the chess set), but that's a different matter of course. I don't like the idea of giving someone a pattern for something complex out of chainmail. I do like the idea of patterns for relatively easy projects: shirt, coif, simple basket, pouch, etc, a few for which I have written tutorials.

As far as the more complicated things like flowers, and any kind of sculptural items, I know that they theoretically could be duplicated, and there are certainly a lot of people, especially on these boards, who would be capable of the same. At the same time though, there are many who would be lost..

But like I've said before, why copy something when you could come up with your own designs? I'm usually willing to provide tips on making certain items, as I've done in this thread and others. Also, the last thing I would ever want to do is make someone not want to attempt something challenging like chainmail sculpture. I want to see more of it! If you ask me, the ratio of chainmail jewelry:sculpture is a bit weighed on the jewelry end.

Oh yes, and if you do end up making a flower, and if you finish it up before January 31, you should definitely submit it into the sculpture contest!

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But I meant it in the case that, if you're the kind of person that would ask for instructions on duplicating artwork, you're probably not very skilled. People who are skilled, and who have spent a lot of time making maille, don't want to clone other's projects. So you can usually infer that if someone's even asking, they're likely too incompetent experience-wise. Further, if they *need* to ask how to duplicate, and can't figure it out on their own, again, too inexperienced to pull it off.

I have to disagree (TO AN EXTENT) with this... though I only have myself to use as an example. Some of you may have seen my Christmas Tree. If I had not seen the pattern/tutorial for the full persian cross... I probably would never have even thought of the tree. Does this mean I am not skilled? Now, I don't think I'm anywhere near as skilled as some of you... but I do have *some*skill.

The following of the cross pattern allowed me to see and then create something else altogether. And I think many others do things this way too.

Many people have the *skill* to do a lot of things but lack the *creativity* to pull it out of thin air. Which is why I had straight A's in all my advanced art classes throughout school, but couldn't get the hang of my advertising class. sigh

(oh, and I finally got a properly sized star on that dang tree... I'll get pictures later)

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I have to disagree (TO AN EXTENT) with this... though I only have myself to use as an example. Some of you may have seen my Christmas Tree. If I had not seen the pattern/tutorial for the full persian cross... I probably would never have even thought of the tree. Does this mean I am not skilled? Now, I don't think I'm anywhere near as skilled as some of you... but I do have *some*skill.

The following of the cross pattern allowed me to see and then create something else altogether. And I think many others do things this way too.

A persian cross is considered a basic design. Once you get into unique designs its a whole new ball game. You will note that you came up with your own design for a tree after..something on a far differnt order than a basic persian cross.

As was stated before, generaly speaking if you need to ask for step by step instructions for something complex and unique you shouldn't be making it. If you can't look at the picture and see all you need to know from that, then its alright to ask specific questions about joints etc. and how they are potentialy done, but as far as handing out patterns for the masses I think its kind of an insult to ones work. Especially when people Demand them or a hundred people ask.

For alot of people, ones work is exactly that: Its thiers. Thier design is something they took hours or weeks(even years) to come up with, and to have someone just up and ask for a pattern by someone not skilled enough to see how its put together is kind of degrading. Something that only took a few hour may be less applicable to these standards, but when you just took a month to perfect a piece, how would it feel to have 20 people ask for instructions on how to duplicate it?

At least thats my take on most of this.

Anyway, I'm hoping that may have added some perspective for people, and if it came off harsh I didn't really mean it to. I just wanted to try and state some things, I feel, a little more bluntly. ;)

:beer: :beer:

*edit*

Many people have the *skill* to do a lot of things but lack the *creativity* to pull it out of thin air. Which is why I had straight A's in all my advanced art classes throughout school, but couldn't get the hang of my advertising class. sigh

Just to respond to this as well...creativity should be inspired by looking at the piece more so than detailed instructions on how to make it. The key to being a mailler is the ability not to weave rings, but to be able to use the weaves to make a design. ;)

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For alot of people, ones work is exactly that: Its thiers. Thier design is something they took hours or weeks(even years) to come up with, and to have someone just up and ask for a pattern by someone not skilled enough to see how its put together is kind of degrading. Something that only took a few hour may be less applicable to these standards, but when you just took a month to perfect a piece, how would it feel to have 20 people ask for instructions on how to duplicate it?

Id feel honored .... (Copy and Paste are your friend)..... I may not give a step by step pattern (I would if I had one).... but I am more than happy to explain the basics, the quarks and what to expect from it ......maybe even pics of the item in progress of being made (if I have.... I usually do).......... much better response than saying "if you are asking you arent good enough to know"

To come to think about it - I had someone like one of my creations so much I am meeting with them later this week so that I can show her how to make it (going beyond the step by step pattern)

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A persian cross is considered a basic design. Once you get into unique designs its a whole new ball game. You will note that you came up with your own design for a tree after..something on a far differnt order than a basic persian cross.

As was stated before, generaly speaking if you need to ask for step by step instructions for something complex and unique you shouldn't be making it. If you can't look at the picture and see all you need to know from that, then its alright to ask specific questions about joints etc. and how they are potentialy done, but as far as handing out patterns for the masses I think its kind of an insult to ones work. Especially when people Demand them or a hundred people ask.

For alot of people, ones work is exactly that: Its thiers. Thier design is something they took hours or weeks(even years) to come up with, and to have someone just up and ask for a pattern by someone not skilled enough to see how its put together is kind of degrading. Something that only took a few hour may be less applicable to these standards, but when you just took a month to perfect a piece, how would it feel to have 20 people ask for instructions on how to duplicate it?

At least thats my take on most of this.

Anyway, I'm hoping that may have added some perspective for people, and if it came off harsh I didn't really mean it to. I just wanted to try and state some things, I feel, a little more bluntly. ;)

:beer: :beer:

*edit*

Just to respond to this as well...creativity should be inspired by looking at the piece more so than detailed instructions on how to make it. The key to being a mailler is the ability not to weave rings, but to be able to use the weaves to make a design. ;)

I do agree with this but they are ways of saying things and above posts (above this one) were way too harsh and not encouraging. I wouldn't ask for detailed instructions on how to make this kind of thing because no I probably wouldn't be able to follow them but I would ask for advice. Sometimes seeing a thing broken down just a little bit gives an insight into how it was constructed and helps a lot with a person's idea which usually turns out to be completely different. I just think the more experienced maillers should be a bit more understanding and helpful to people trying to learn.

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Not to be rude to anyone... because like I said above, I don't think I have nearly the skill so many of you do and I am envious... but I think that some of the experienced maillers let experience go to their heads. They forget that they were once beginners...LEARNING....and suddenly become "Holier than Thou". I think the whole "if you have to ask you're too stupid to know" attitude really sucks. If my teachers had told me that throughout my school days I'd be a blazing idiot.

And I have had MANY people ask how to make my tree and how to make the choker in my avatar picture. Was I insulted? No. I was flattered that people thought my work was good enough to re-create. If you don't want people re-creating or attempting to re-create your work don't post it. If you don't want people expanding on what you've already done...again... don't post it. How can you post and NOT expect people to want to know how you did it?

I apologize for coming off bitchy...my dogs kept me up all night barking and I'm REALLY cranky. :(

And to clarify.... Do I think every one should hand out patterns for everything they do? Absolutely not. But to get insulted or offended and pissy and tell someone they're stupid or incapable of doing it because they asked?.... Get off the high horse.

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Hows this for being bitchy

For all of us that were deemed incapible of doing sculptures because we requested a pattern, I present a pattern or atleast in progress pictures and explaination of how to make the flower I just completed.

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=18102&l=94b54&id=662097921

Note:

1. all rings are from TRL

2. this was made form limited ring sizes because I am still realitively new and have not built up a huge stock of sizes yet.

3. This was my first attempt at making a flower... not exactly as nice I would have liked it to be, but I will continue working on improving my technique.

I hope you enjoy and please post any improvements that you may have

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It would help if we knew what he meant by "pattern".

To me, a pattern is a detailed diagram or layout specifying measurements of specific pieces and their location. Good for wearable stuff or sheet form projects, but probably not the best format for scuptural applications. I would also probably apply the term pattern to an inlay diagram.

Was he looking for step by step instructions? I call that a tutorial. For something as complex as what was requested, that seems like a whole lot of work, and if his skills aren't up to creating his own design, then yes, he may not have the necessary skills to follow an intricate tutorial well, either.

Maybe he was just looking for ideas as to what weaves to use, connection methods, aspect ratios, or other general tips and tricks. That's pretty easy to do, and at least a couple of people gave him suggestions on that track.

Not to belittle those who do such fantastic pieces of jewellry, but maille sculpture is without a doubt in my mind the most artistic use of our craft. And, as art, it is highly individualized/personalized. Would you ask for a pattern to duplicate the Mona Lisa? And even if you had one, could you duplicate it well enough that it didn't look like a paint-by-number kit? I'm sure there is somebody out there that could, but most attempts would look exactly like what they were: an imitation.

“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime” —Author unknown

If you have to ask for a pattern, your skills may not be at a level that you can successfully follow that pattern.

I know my skills and abilites aren't to that level yet.

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