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How-To-'Scale'ing-Guide?

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Since they are so different, and TRL is the only place that has them, it seems there are always questions about how to weave the scales scattered throughout the forum. And of course the only ones with answers are those of us here who learned the hard way making our own. B) Meaning no offense, especially since they were the first to offer any instructions at all, but Khelgar's and even Lorenzo's tutorials are a little scanty on some of the trickier details. I was wondering if there is any interest out there for a group collaboration on a new/updated FAQ or PDF file that could be hosted here to cover often overlooked things such as basic patterns (barrel&strap, 45 degree, etc.), tips & tricks, perhaps links to photos in the gallery that go along with written instruction, and so on. Yes I know that everyone has their own 'best' way of 'doing things', and that all the information necessary to make a scaled creation is all over the forum, but everyone's ideas and information are indeed all OVER the forum. It's a lot of searching and/or oft repeated questions... <_< Good idea? Bad idea? Too much trouble? Don't wanna bother? Whichever way, it will be interesting to see what everyone else thinks. :)

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I think thats a brilliant idea. I don't have the patience to muck around and figure out how to accomplish certain weaves and structural components of maille. (I'm more of a find the info needed and get stuck in kinda person) The more info I can get my hands on, the more likely I'll be to give it a go. Its probably safe to say there are others like me who think the same way:)

And it would be cool to have a melting pot of sorts to see how other people weave scales. Have you thought of adding some info over at mailleartisans too?

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I think thats a brilliant idea. I don't have the patience to muck around and figure out how to accomplish certain weaves and structural components of maille. (I'm more of a find the info needed and get stuck in kinda person) The more info I can get my hands on, the more likely I'll be to give it a go. Its probably safe to say there are others like me who think the same way:)

And it would be cool to have a melting pot of sorts to see how other people weave scales. Have you thought of adding some info over at mailleartisans too?

I think that would also help out TRL. If people knew there were in-depth instructions on making scale they would be more ready to start a project. Like myself.

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Since they are so different

I would disagree for the way I see them. I came to the realization that scales are indeed like rings with a large obstruction on the side of them.

Good idea? Bad idea? Too much trouble? Don't wanna bother? Whichever way, it will be interesting to see what everyone else thinks. :)

I think its an excellent idea. :P

The only problem that I see is your question #3, might be difficult getting people to formally write something up/take pictures about it.

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I would disagree for the way I see them. I came to the realization that scales are indeed like rings with a large obstruction on the side of them.

I think its an excellent idea. :P

The only problem that I see is your question #3, might be difficult getting people to formally write something up/take pictures about it.

I probably should have been more specific; they are so different from regular scales, not mail... :lol: I've made two 'normal' scale cuirasses in the past. As for TRL's, I've only worked with the large ones, so I was hoping some of the other 'old pros' would be willing to throw their two cents in. As for me, I'll put together a few of the things I've learned over this and the next weekend. Maybe by the time I have anything worth posting or hosting somewhere, others will have expressed willingness to add some pointers.

I would really like to make a hauberk out of the small titanium scales with titanium links; but alas I don't have two grand to spare... :rolleyes:

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This is an Excellent Idea. It might take someone to post a "how to" with photos and such and be willing to take some outside inputs on how to improve it. Then each person's input could also be read and used or ignored as the reader chooses. I am planning a Scale project after Christmas, but I would not consider myself an "old Pro" I think Paladin is looking for a volunteer, and I don't feel qualified. Anyone? Anyone?

Edited by Canisunis

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This is an Excellent Idea. It might take someone to post a "how to" with photos and such and be willing to take some outside inputs on how to improve it. Then each person's input could also be read and used or ignored as the reader chooses. I am planning a Scale project after Christmas, but I would not consider myself an "old Pro" I think Paladin is looking for a volunteer, and I don't feel qualified. Anyone? Anyone?

from all the assembly's ive tried, a E-4-1 is the only weave that really works for scale.

in my vest, my biggest challenge was...

1 - the shoulders (currently fixing)

2 - making the back stand straight up (solved)

3 - contractions/expansions (working on a plan)

4 - edges of the scales, on the border of the neck line where they are only connected with 2, the scales will bend funky, and sometimes dig into my skin. i think i may have a solution for that, but i need to experiment.

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from all the assembly's ive tried, a E-4-1 is the only weave that really works for scale.

in my vest, my biggest challenge was...

1 - the shoulders (currently fixing)

2 - making the back stand straight up (solved)

3 - contractions/expansions (working on a plan)

4 - edges of the scales, on the border of the neck line where they are only connected with 2, the scales will bend funky, and sometimes dig into my skin. i think i may have a solution for that, but i need to experiment.

The 'standard' weave pattern for TRL style scales (as shown on the TRL site and what most people use) is Japanese 4-1 not Euro 4-1. However, you may be using a Euro 4-1 pattern if you are filling in the 'missing ring'. I have assembled scales using a Euro 4-1 pattern but was unhappy with the result. Even though both visually look the same, I found that some scales in the Euro 4-1 configuration had a tendency to ride up over neighbouring scales.

In an attempt to remedy my partial hijacking of this thread, I would like to add my support for a good comprehensive guide to all things scale. I find that once you get over the initial hurdle of working with them, they are no big deal. The scale is just an odd shaped big ring.

Edited by Arctic TRN

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I had a busy weekend, and this one, with a job interview and a store meeting to attend is shaping up the same way. I've managed to assemble a few samples to demonstrate some of the techniques I used in making mine. I need to borrow a camera to take decent pics, and put together more samples. I should have at least a partial post up by next weekend. The samples so far are shoulder links, including 45 degree links, 90 degree links, & simple end to end patterns. (Think Lorenzo's brass vest) Some were done TRL style, some were done in full 4in1 like I did mine. I should note they are done in large scales as I have none of the little ones. Thanks for your support and patience. Hopefully some of the other 'old pros' will share tips when they see some posted. One tip another old pro gave me, 4in1 does not work well on small scales; it makes them stick out a bit. I have not had that problem with the large scales though, nor have I had them tangle with the extra link.

Edited by Paladin

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So far, the most helpful advice I've heard has been to prepare each scale for weaving by adding two rings to it first. Having a bucket of pre-ringed scales significantly helped me determine the correct ring/scale orientation when assembling them. This advice came from Legba; others may have said it before, but she said it at a time when I was ready to listen.

I have an ill-fitting large-scale shirt made, but it needs to be deconstructed and retailored. (I based it on the same dimensions as an existing maille shirt. My body has changed shape since then, and the maille accommodates the changes just fine. Scale does not.) Once I figure out a method for tailoring that works for me, I'll post it.

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Here is a sample of what I am trying to do. The pics were taken with my cellphone camera and so are crappy. I will have use of a good camera later in the week, so I will take better pictures. The piece shown is a shoulder seam using two 90 degree links, and two 45 degree links with scales covering the 45 degree seams. You will see the left scale that covers the 45 degree link has two extra rings attached. This helps keep the scale in place over the seam. The patch was woven as a full 4in1. If you look closely at the 90 link from the bottom, you will see the horizontal scale is attached to two different vertical scales. A single ring between corresponding scales makes the 45 degree link. The description is spare this time, and the pics are bad as I've said, but this is the gist of what I am going for. I intend to make a pdf file as well which will include pics alongside descriptions. (Though that will take me a bit longer...) Let me know what you think. By the way, that particular shoulder patch was what I was initially doing on my prototype. I temporarily abandoned the pattern because I wanted more protection across the shoulders than it would provide. It is flexible, and the scales don't dig into your neck, so it's good for costume, maybe not as good in combat. Though I didn't test it to see for certain...

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq209/tgspaladin/Scales/CIMG0108.jpg

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq209/tgspaladin/Scales/CIMG0109.jpg

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq209/tgspaladin/Scales/CIMG0110.jpg

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Here is a sample of what I am trying to do. The pics were taken with my cellphone camera and so are crappy. I will have use of a good camera later in the week, so I will take better pictures. The piece shown is a shoulder seam using two 90 degree links, and two 45 degree links with scales covering the 45 degree seams. You will see the left scale that covers the 45 degree link has two extra rings attached. This helps keep the scale in place over the seam. The patch was woven as a full 4in1. If you look closely at the 90 link from the bottom, you will see the horizontal scale is attached to two different vertical scales. A single ring between corresponding scales makes the 45 degree link. The description is spare this time, and the pics are bad as I've said, but this is the gist of what I am going for. I intend to make a pdf file as well which will include pics alongside descriptions. (Though that will take me a bit longer...) Let me know what you think. By the way, that particular shoulder patch was what I was initially doing on my prototype. I temporarily abandoned the pattern because I wanted more protection across the shoulders than it would provide. It is flexible, and the scales don't dig into your neck, so it's good for costume, maybe not as good in combat. Though I didn't test it to see for certain...

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq209/tgspaladin/Scales/CIMG0108.jpg

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq209/tgspaladin/Scales/CIMG0109.jpg

http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq209/tgspaladin/Scales/CIMG0110.jpg

I'm not sure how I feel about mating the ends. I don't particularly like the straight line between front and back scales via TRL's pictures, and yours has a central strip which might be ok, but I'm not sure that's what I want either. If we could figure out a 45deg. that forms the whole shoulder strap, it would be more even, but in battle, the first rows near the neck which will contain a 45 might not sit quite right. I'm not saying the whole strap is 45, only a taper of 45 from bottom of neck front to back and gets triangular meeting to a single point at the shoulder cap, if that makes sense. A triangle whose hypotenuse is at the neck. In your case with the central strip, I do like the end rings being 45. I wonder how it'd look if you continued that 45 deg. row all the way up....

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I would love to see a "Scale Weaving basics" Tutorial! I found Lorenzo and Khelgar's tutorials to be a good starting point, but not particularly comprehensive. (I preferred Khlegars method of showing the construction from the back.)

If someone were to put together step-by-step instructions like Khelgar's for a few different techniques (45/90 degree linking, contractions, any other useful techniques that I, as a newbie, don't know about....) it would be very helpful and possibly even marketable!

Thanks and good luck! Let me know if you need a technical writer to polish the script! Lol.

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I've been considering a scale shirt starting from a coif - circular expansions from the neck out.

I know I've seen a normal hauberk made that way and can't see a reason why it wouldn't apply to scales.

I guess it effectively being the 'wrong' way as far as the underlying e4-1 pattern is concerned could effect it and visually that many expansions could be iffy.

Edited by Dragonius

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Thanks for the encouragement. The hold-ups have mostly been lack of free time, access to a good camera, and a scarcity of scales. Basically, I've been weaving the forms, taking pics, then taking them apart to make new ones. (I don't have the spare cash for more materials right now, damn medical bills...) As of now, I have about half the needed pics, all in full 4in1 pattern, all in large scales. (See above for the reason I don't have small ones :P) The next lot will be of the 'normal' weave. I will include pics and stats of my armor, and if anyone else would like to submit theirs along with any techniques that make it uniquely yours, I would of course be grateful and give all due props and credit; the idea is to make a fairly broad how to, not just "my way".

@ Maker Ethos: I tend to be overly wordy and descriptive; your skills could be rather useful in making a tutorial (instead of a novel) more understandable to all. I intend to make a PDF file in the end, so if you are willing, I'll happily submit a rough draft for editing when I've got it all assembled. "Weaving Basics" is only going to have a paragraph or two along with some peoples' tips as I think it is well covered; I intend to focus on pattern, design, and fit as those are the areas I see the most questions for. (I consider your wishlist as parts of "fit" & "pattern" BTW :) )

@ Dot Hacker: The pics above were of a shoulder seam I didn't use, because I wanted more protection up there for SCA style combat. I went with a 45 degree angle link. I did it like this: If you consider the neck hole a square, and the front and back panels running vertically, then the remaining two sides of the neck hole run horizontally. I decided to do it this way instead of starting with a single scale on the sides. (See where your help would be handy Maker? :lol:) Between that pattern, and covering the seams with scales as you saw in the pics above and Twilight Banana's gallery pics, I am well protected and still have enough freedom of movement to use a sword. On a side note, I also tried a 90 degree link that takes up the sides of the neck hole with 45 degree links filling in to help protect the armpits and shoulder blades better, but I found it too restrictive for hand and a half, or two handed sword work. It seemed just fine for sword and board though. (Sword and shield) I would like to experiment with that pattern more, as I may have made my filler patches a little too long... I believe Lorenzo used the "single scale" 45 degree link in his latest shirt; pics are in the gallery. Yeah, I did not care for the back to back shoulder seam either.

@ Dragonius: I was having problems with circular expansions in the full 4in1 weave, I would imagine it works better using the standard weave though I did not try it that way myself. Another member did a nice looking scale coif using 45 degree links. If you are looking to do a mantle style scale shirt you might be able to do it with just 90 and 45 degree links instead of circular expansions. It's a neat idea, never thought to try it myself; something else for me to experiment with when I've saved up enough for more scales... If you beat me to it and make it work, it's something that will definitely have to be included in the how to guide; I've not seen one done that way before. I do worry that the large scales would not lay comfortably where the side of the neck meets the shoulders though, but the little ones...

Edited by Paladin

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I know this is older, but can anyone answer some questions about scales?

Specifically I am concerned about the weight, and if it the links will support it.

I have a request for a full shirt/skirt but of aluminum rather than steel (as it will be a costume not armor)

To minimize the weight I was hoping to use butted links but now I'm not sure that it can hold the weight with out pulling apart.

And if I do use butted does it need to be stainless steel or can I use aluminum?

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I know this is older, but can anyone answer some questions about scales?

Specifically I am concerned about the weight, and if it the links will support it.

I have a request for a full shirt/skirt but of aluminum rather than steel (as it will be a costume not armor)

To minimize the weight I was hoping to use butted links but now I'm not sure that it can hold the weight with out pulling apart.

And if I do use butted does it need to be stainless steel or can I use aluminum?

If you use butted rings they will eventually allow scales to work in to the closure and cause holes. The only way to completely avoid holes is to use split rings. Whether the rings are stainless just varies how long it takes for the holes to form.

Movak

PS Since this is a separate question it would have been better if you just started a new thread. Technically this is called hijacking a thread and since the last post was quite a while ago it could also be called threadomancy (resurecting a dead thread).

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PS Since this is a separate question it would have been better if you just started a new thread. Technically this is called hijacking a thread and since the last post was quite a while ago it could also be called threadomancy (resurecting a dead thread).

Unless of course you attempted to do a search instead of blindly asking first and this is what you found at the top of the list. If so we appreciate the effort. Search functions don't always work in the most desirable way. Movak is dead on, especially with the much thinner stainless scales. You can have them working their way out of a ring before the piece is done being woven. Other then split rings welding/riveting is the only other effective solutions and tend to be daunting or unavailable. I am curous if a krimp method could be tested to be another option since the appearance of the rings in scale work is less a concern. Perhaps a krimp ring that is applied or a krimp deformation similar to ones used to connect metal strapping.

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