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Magill029

Dragonscale ring size info needed

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So, I've pretty much finished my small scale scale-mail shirt. I still need to put in contractions and maybe add a tad bit of length and a few other adjustments to it. The shirt is about waist length. I am considering making a "skirt" type addition to cover the pelvic region. I would like to make a dragon-scale pattern for this.

I already have 16 ga 5/16" jump rings. What size rings should I get to for the smaller ones? Would 18ga 3/16 work?

I messed around with some dragon-scale and the weave was to tight to make more than a few rows. I couldn't fit any more rings into it.

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16 ga. 5/16" is a bit tight for Dragonscale, but if that is what you are going for you may want to see if you can find some 18 ga. 7/32" rings that will fit inside, but not all will fit. 18 ga. 3/16" may or may not work; it will be very tight if it does work. Basically, you're right at the edge of what is and isn't possible and the small size difference from springback in different materials becomes vital.

Ideally, you'd want something like 16 ga. 3/8" for the large rings and 16 ga. 1/4" for the small. I'd suggest getting these sizes instead.

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I assume you can use any size of rings as long as they are relative. I have been inspired by Dr. T's diamond pattern dragonscale shirt. Im not really interested in using 60,000+ rings. I already have a bag of 16ga 5/16 so I was looking for something that would work with those. I don't want the weave to be too big and clunky looking with visibility through the skirt. If the 5/16 rings will make a good looking pattern Im ok with getting smaller rings and spending more time to construct. The scale shirt took probably 150+ hours in the last 3 weeks to make and I don't mind investing alot more time as long as the final product is good looking.

Another question:

Im considering different ways to attach the skirt to the shirt. I really don't want to hang it from the bottom of the scale shirt. Im thinking about lining the scale shirt with something on the inside that has a reinforced bottom portion and attach the dragonscale skirt to that. What would you suggest?

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No, 16ga 5/16" rings combined with 18ga 3/16" rings will not work. Once you hit three rows wide on the 5/16" rings it becomes unworkable. I can test for you however using 16ga 5/16" and 18ga 7/32" later today. I got the 7/32" rings in hopes it'll be just the right size to work, I just haven't got around to it just yet. Let me know if you would like me to test it with the 7/32" rings, it's going to happen eventually. Just do not waste the money or time on making the 18ga 3/16" rings.

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Dr T. uses split rings, so you cannot assume round rings of the same size will work. Also, you cannot assume any size of rings as long as they are relative will work. Phong's tutorial for Dragonscale gives you explicit details on how to find suitable rings.

My only comment on Phong's tutorial is the the ID of the small ring must be at least 3.6 * the WD of the large rings. Here is the math:

The equivelant of six rings must go through the small ring; the 4 that actually go through and the one that is sandwiched between these 4 rows. You get something like this'

oo

=====

oo

It is the diagonal of the rings that go through the small ring the matters. Therefore , the diagonal of a 2x3 rectange is 3.6. That is the absolute minimum and very tight/inflexible. When making a skirt there needs to be movement and the size of the small ring is the overriding factor.

The problem with your choice of rings is that 16 G 5/16" rings have an AR of 5.3. Since 3.6 of that is used up by the minimum rule you only have 1.7 wire diameters to work with. This make 16G out of the question and even with 18G leaves you only .01" room. That can be taken up by springback and inaccuracies. You might try 19G or 20G for the small rings buth then you are getting into strength issues.

Movak

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Phong's math is quite sound. But the rings have to meet BOTH requirements at the same time. Not just the one. It's not an either/or situation. So the small ring must fit inside the large ring, AND the small ring's ID must be at least 3 times the wire diameter of the large ring. 16g 5/16" and 18g 13/64" meets both those requirements. Finding 18g 13/64" on the other hand... well good luck with that. :(

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Phong's math is quite sound. But the rings have to meet BOTH requirements at the same time. Not just the one. It's not an either/or situation. So the small ring must fit inside the large ring, AND the small ring's ID must be at least 3 times the wire diameter of the large ring. 16g 5/16" and 18g 13/64" meets both those requirements. Finding 18g 13/64" on the other hand... well good luck with that. :(

Take a look at the last post in this thread by Phong.

For clarity's sake, the 3x idea was a very quick, back of the napkin idea, not a rule borne out by either mathematical computation or experimental attempts. Dave Austin's data is much more reliable than mine, since he's actually working at the bottom of the AR range.

Cynake and I are working on figuring out what the minimum(s) are, and for Helm Chain it looks like the minimum theoretical AR for the small rings (with both wire gauges the same) is 3.127. The minimum theoretical AR for Dragonscale is just over 3.410.

Note that these AR's will NOT allow you to weave. These are the minimum in-situ AR's. Unless you have a way to magically transport closed, perfectly toroidal rings into place, you'll need to raise the AR to get the open ring & pliers in place. I don't know what the precise weaveable minimum is, so I'll defer to Dave Austin's 3.6.

We're working to figure out how the minimum AR changes with wire and inner diameter alterations. More to come later.

-phong

He just has not changed his tutorial page.

Movak

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Ah, thank you for pointing to that thread Movak! I learned a lot reading through the whole thing (not just the last post). Now we all just need to punch Phong until he updates that tutorial. :P

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Dragonscale using 16ga 5/16" and 18ga 7/32" rings is working for me. I'm using anodized aluminum for the 5/16" rings and bright aluminum for the 7/32" rings. It's only three 5/16" rings wide, but I'm sure it is able to be widened.

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Dragonscale using 16ga 5/16" and 18ga 7/32" rings is working for me. I'm using anodized aluminum for the 5/16" rings and bright aluminum for the 7/32" rings. It's only three 5/16" rings wide, but I'm sure it is able to be widened.

Sorry but that is not the case. The issue is that since it is only three wide the side large rings can move up and down to get out of the way. If it was 4 wide there that movement could not occur and the weave would be very tight if not impossible. Please be very careful in extrapolating; many time it does not work.

Movak

Yeah, I have played with DS a lot.

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Sorry but that is not the case. The issue is that since it is only three wide the side large rings can move up and down to get out of the way. If it was 4 wide there that movement could not occur and the weave would be very tight if not impossible. Please be very careful in extrapolating; many time it does not work.

Movak

Yeah, I have played with DS a lot.

It's 45 rows long and still working, I may not quite comprehend what you were saying. It seems like no matter how many rows wide it is the side rings will be able to move up and down unless you connect it fully around.

Update: I just made a small patch of Dragonscale 5 large rings wide and 6 rows long and it has the some consistency of my 3 x 45 patch. I did notice however, that I make my Dragonscale slightly different than Phong's method and the other instructions I've found. It looks the exact same in the end but its easier to work with as I go.

Edited by gamefreak2291

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It's 45 rows long and still working, I may not quite comprehend what you were saying. It seems like no matter how many rows wide it is the side rings will be able to move up and down unless you connect it fully around.

You are correct the side rings will move no matter what. The issue is that the weave gets much tighter three rings in from the side. If the weave is only 3 wide there is no "three rings in from the side". Since you have the rings why don't you try making a short piece four rings wide and 6 rows long and see if it works. From my experience it doesn't.

Another issue is that actual ID may not be the target ID; maybe the 5/16" rings are actually closer to 11/32" or 3/4"

Movak

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Dragonscale using 16ga 5/16" and 18ga 7/32" rings is working for me. I'm using anodized aluminum for the 5/16" rings and bright aluminum for the 7/32" rings. It's only three 5/16" rings wide, but I'm sure it is able to be widened.

If the 16G 5/16" anodized rings are from TRL please note that the actual ID of the rings is not 0.3125( 5/16") but is 0.33". That extra room may be why it is working.

Movak

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If the 16G 5/16" anodized rings are from TRL please note that the actual ID of the rings is not 0.3125( 5/16") but is 0.33". That extra room may be why it is working.

Movak

What about their Bright Aluminum? Also, when/if I find a 5/16" mandrel I can make and test it with 5/16" galvanized steel.

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What about their Bright Aluminum? Also, when/if I find a 5/16" mandrel I can make and test it with 5/16" galvanized steel.

You can find that info on the TRL sales pages for each ring size under the heading of actual ID. btw, the BA is .331".

Movak

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Ok. I havent been on in a few days to check replys. Gamefreak, thanks for testing this for me. After working on it what do you think is the best size rings to use?

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Ok. I havent been on in a few days to check replys. Gamefreak, thanks for testing this for me. After working on it what do you think is the best size rings to use?

If you're purchasing your rings from TRL anodized or bright aluminum 16ga 5/16" rings with 18ga 7/32" rings is what I suggest, if you're making them yourself I would talk to Movak :P

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Thanks.

I defiantly will not be making my own rings. Ive done that many times before and I'm not sure if I ever want to do it again. I have a chain shirt made of galvanized wire that I rolled and cut myself and it takes forever, especially if you are looking to get good cuts. I used a dremel tool to cut the rings.

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Another question:

I don't have experience dealing with dragonscale mail. Is the ratio 1-1 when it comes to small-big rings? If I need to order different amounts of ecah ring I would like to know in advance.

Also, how many rings are going to be in a 1 sq foot piece. I need to calculate how many rings I will need to buy.

Edited by Magill029

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Another question:

I don't have experience dealing with dragonscale mail. Is the ratio 1-1 when it comes to small-big rings? If I need to order different amounts of ecah ring I would like to know in advance.

Yes, the ratio is 1:1.

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Another question:

I don't have experience dealing with dragonscale mail. Is the ratio 1-1 when it comes to small-big rings? If I need to order different amounts of ecah ring I would like to know in advance.

Also, how many rings are going to be in a 1 sq foot piece. I need to calculate how many rings I will need to buy.

I would suggest buying one bag of each ring size and trying it. Then use you sample patch to calculate how many rings in total you will need. I am not aware of an accurate ring estimator for DS as the math involved is non-trivial. The complexity is increased duee to the interactions between ring IDs and wire sizes.

I think that 16G 5/16" and 18G 7/32" will be too stiff for a "skirt". You might get away with a "loin cloth" as it does not have to bend around the sides.

Movak

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Thanks.

I defiantly will not be making my own rings. Ive done that many times before and I'm not sure if I ever want to do it again. I have a chain shirt made of galvanized wire that I rolled and cut myself and it takes forever, especially if you are looking to get good cuts. I used a dremel tool to cut the rings.

Thats exactly how I started, 14AWG galvanized steel, hand coiling the wire and cutting it with a dremel and pliers to hold/pull the cut ring off the coil. I could get about 100 ring to an hour by the time I stopped working with it. I don't plan on making my own again until i get a nice cutting setup, like the Ringinator.

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